Best of Unstuck

BestOf · February 21, 2020, 6:55pm

Thanks for posting that while I was slacking, ggoreo. Lots to catch up on so let’s jump right to it:

Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Regarding Joe Rogan, a few things:

Not all of the people who consume some of his content are part of this toxic crowd that is being spoken of. (If this is getting you triggered, make sure you read the rest of #1 and #2.) For example, he has on some experts in their field and does long interviews with them and gets way in depth. I was interested in eating broccoli sprouts for their numerous health benefits, and a woman called Dr. Rhonda Patrick is like THE broccoli sprouts expert. He had her on for a long interview and I watched some of it on YouTube looking for specific information. This is one of a few times I’ve stumbled onto his YouTube looking for content of a specific person who ended up having been his guest.

There’s definitely a toxicity about a lot of his content/audience. I had a friend who I cut out of my life in 2017 for a handful of reasons, but basically the dude was just a toxic macho bro guy who was really annoying to me and could never let an argument go. He also thought Trump was hilarious and would be harmless, I could have made a big bet with him that people would end up in cages but I couldn’t live with myself making money that way. Obviously I should have taken the bet and donated it to charity. Anyway, this guy LOVES Joe Rogan. I didn’t know much about him at the time, and my buddy really wanted to go see a comedy show of his in Philly and hang out, so I agreed. At this point in time, I basically only knew Rogan as the Fear Factor guy. There were definitely a number of cringe moments during the routine for me, and each time my buddy was cracking up and loved it. The biggest cringe thing was the crowd. As soon as we got near the theatre and were walking in, I knew I had fucked up and was in for an annoying evening. It was like allllllllllll dudes. Barely a couple there, no groups of women, and the jokes/comments you could overhear made me uncomfortable being part of that crowd.

Lots of these people will vote for a staunchly liberal candidate who doesn’t lecture them about the ills of their views on progressive social issues, then ignore it as that candidate does a bunch of great stuff on those issues along with the Medicare for All type stuff. Should we cater to them? Obviously not. Should we discourage their votes and support? I don’t know for sure, it’s a fair debate, but I think not. It’s complicated.

I mean, Rogan also said this, which is left of and stronger than what probably 95% of elected Dems in Congress would say about these issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeKoh2zHg1o

Like, can you even imagine Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer or insert prominent eDem here saying of family separation, “If that doesn’t freak you the fuck out, you’re not a part of the team man, you’re missing it… What are we here for? We’re here for 100 years of whatever. If you want to spend a hundred years saying, ‘Hey she shouldn’t have fucking broke the law,’ I don’t want you on the team, you’re an asshole. I don’t give a fuck if you’re right or left, I don’t care if you’re religious, I don’t care if you’re an atheist, if that’s what you support, you’re an asshole and we don’t want you on our team.”

He goes on to basically say he’s glad AOC won even if he disagrees on issues with her, because she’s getting money out of politics and represents the people in her district, not the money.

Now I’m sure people can dig up a bunch of absolutely TERRIBLE things he has said or his guests have said without him pushing back, and I get that, and the left should have a discussion of this kind of stuff, but if we want to make big changes in the next decade, we probably need the support of these types of people.

Catfacemeowmers nailed it with this:

Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Like, what kind of people did everyone think those Main Line Republicans for Clinton would be?

I play poker with a handful of these dudes on the regular, like literally Trump voters who either fit that country club suburban Philly stereotype right down to the private golf course pullover or the Joe Rogan listener South Philly type.

The country club types are almost strictly voting on finances, so if we want to woo them with Joe Biden and promises not to raise their taxes, we can try, but at the end of the day, the teeny tiny difference between Biden’s tax plans and Trump’s tax plans may be a bridge too far and they may be in for four more years. This way we don’t get the Joe Rogan endorsement for the candidate, and we may feel morally superior in that regard, but if you think those voters aren’t spewing their toxic masculinity every time there aren’t women around, I don’t know what to tell you.

Some of the Rogan types will go for Bernie, because they really only care about 2-3 issues, and they tend to be stuff like getting money out of politics. I actually had a quiet conversation at the table with one of these types recently. He’s an Obama-Trump voter who I have considering Bernie if he wins the nomination. I had to ignore some comments during the back and forth about various issues that I really didn’t like ignoring, but by focusing on healthcare, getting money out of politics, honesty of the candidate, and just being a good person who’s not going to rip families apart, I was able to get through to him a bit. He viewed Trump as a necessary brick through the window even though he thinks he’s an asshole, and if his choice is to pick that same brick up and throw it again or to pick up a nicer brick and throw it, he’ll take the nicer brick, but he’s not voting for Joe Biden or Pete Buttigieg.

Joe Rogan’s overall political views may surprise some people. Like, I’ve seen < 10 YouTube videos of this guy totaling < 60 minutes in my life, and I can tell you he’s for socialized healthcare and improving and further socializing education. He’s for less bombs. He’s not randomly endorsing Bernie… His views actually match up with the liberal wing of the Democratic party on a lot of issues.

If you ask me, the question is not whether we should seek or accept these endorsements, it’s whether we should promote them and celebrate them. There’s a moral question to it and a risk-reward question. Bernie may have alienated some supporters and sent the wrong message to them… But bottom line: if we start getting a significant percentage (maybe even like 10-15% counts) of votes from this archetype of voter over the next decade, 60 seats in the Senate are back in play and just dominating the political landscape is in play. If the Faustian bargain is to not lecture them about their bigotry and sexism, and then to placate them with policies we want to enact anyway (Medicare for All, getting money out of politics, progressive tax policy) while doing the right thing on all of those social issues… That doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me. Instead of giving them someone to blame for their problems, we fix their problems (which happen to be things we want to do anyway) and do the right thing on those social issues while hoping that their bigotry is reduced when their economic situation improves.

And, listen, if they don’t like it, they can vote for someone else next time and we should tell them to fuck off at that point. Nobody is saying we should be on bended knee on social policy for these voters.

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ITV: Impeachment Television

My wife forwarded this to me:

ALL THE WITNESSES: Ok we all agree. This is what happened.

REPUBLICANS: None of you were in the room!

BOLTON: raises hand Well I was in the…

REPUBLICANS: Who asked you?! Shut up! You’re a liberal pawn!

BOLTON: Um… I’m actually I’m a lifelong Republican and I was literally Trump’s national security advi…

REPUBLICANS: Shut your mustache! Somebody bring back the first national security advisor.

FLYNN: in orange jumpsuit Hey sorry guys I’m in jail lol.

REPUBLICANS: What? Why?

FLYNN: For lying to the FBI about the Russia investigation.

REPUBLICANS: Well what idiot told you to do that?!

FLYNN: The Pres…

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! No one believes either of you!

KELLY: raises hand I believe them. And I was Trump’s Chief of sta…

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! Let’s talk to the real chief of staff. Who is he?

MULVANEY: raises hand It me.

REPUBLICANS: Shit. Never mind.

PARNAS: raises hand I was also in the room. In fact, here’s a cell phone video of the President saying that…

REPUBLICANS: Wait what?! How in hell did you sneak a cell phone into a meeting with the President?

PARNAS: It was easy I just walked right in and…

REPUBLICANS: Shut up! You’re a criminal!

PARNAS: Correct. And I just walked right into…

TRUMP: I don’t know him.

PARNAS: And here’s 500 pictures of me with the President because we’re besties.

REPUBLICANS: Wait… What idiot introduced you to the President??

PARNAS: His personal lawyer.

REPUBLICANS: Cohen??

COHEN: also in orange jumpsuit Hey no sorry guys I’m in jail too.

REPUBLICANS: Why?

COHEN: For campaign finance violations.

REPUBLICANS: Who’s campaign?

COHEN: The Pres…

REPUBLICANS: Shut up!

PARNAS: It was Giuliani.

YOVANOVITCH: Giuliani! That’s the guy who had me fired from my job!

REPUBLICANS: Who are you??

YOVANOVITCH: I was the ambassador to Ukraine.

REPUBLICANS: Wait, you had her fired? Do you work for the government??

GIULIANI: Nope.

REPUBLICANS: Well who is the ambassador to the European Union??

SONDLAND: raises hand Me. I was also in the roo…

REPUBLICANS: F@$&!!!

PUTIN: rubs his bare chest

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ITV: Impeachment Television

I make a deep run in a poker tournament and come home to this? Ugggggggh. Curse the 73o my KK got cracked by that made me tune back into this. I miss my sweet, sweet ignorance.

If the GOP won’t vote for witnesses, the Democratic response is simple. Wait for them to acquit, then immediately open a new impeachment inquiry and subpoena Bolton, Mulvaney, etc to testify. This is a raw power struggle, it’s time to get in the fucking game.

The GOP wants to acquit for process reasons? They want to say it’s the House’s job to get these witnesses to testify? Okay, that’s within their raw power to do. But the House gets to open a new impeachment inquiry, they can say the Senate never actually ruled on the charges themselves, they ruled on the process, and so we’re going to get these additional witnesses ourselves. Oh, it’s happening in the middle of an election year? Too bad, so sad, fuck you. You could have had the witnesses and wrapped it up in early February, you didn’t, now we’re doing it. Enjoy your second impeachment trial that much closer to the election, Senators Collins, Gardner, Ernst, Tillis, and McSally. Cry us a river.

You will hear from John Bolton and then you will vote again.

Instead they’ll talk about how important the 2020 elections are to save democracy, meanwhile Trump and the GOP will be colluding with anyone and everyone, deleting voters from the rolls if their addresses are in big cities that vote heavily Dem or their last names indicate that they are likely a minority, and perhaps straight up rigging the machines. They’ll be investigating the nominee, probably the VP too, and probably some Democratic challengers in the Senate. Illegal doesn’t matter, it’s going to be within the presidents proven rights to do anything necessary, regardless of the law, to ensure his or her own re-election because it’s in the national interest.

We’re going to get shellacked in 2020 if the rules of the game are that Trump can do whatever he wants, and Democrats will play fair and hope for the best.

And not only are the Democrats too stupid to get in the game, these clowns running the party are trying to push Joe Biden down our throats so that even if we win, after four years of Trump and after the GOP has explicitly said that the president has king-like powers to do whatever he or she wants, Joe will be like, “Nah, we’ve gotta get this back under control and make some bipartisan deals with Mitch McConnell, my dear friend in the Senate.”

We are all so so so so so so so so so so so so so so fucked.

original post

This one’s a first, I’m putting this post behind a spoiler because while it’s funny, it’s also in poor taste

original post

On another topic

On another topic

Well, if your premises are wrong, that’s not a problem with the logic per se.

Also if the premises are incomplete or unknown, which is often the case due to the nature of the world (open) of analysis. There are people who are good at using deductive reasoning to reach conclusions in closed worlds like pure mathematics. Where they seem to comically fail is applying that approach to open worlds, namely the empirical one we live in. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it’s a trait of the people we’re talking about. Consider these two claims, the first being deductive and the second inductive:

(1) It has been shown under unobjectionable assumptions that artificial wage floors reduce total employment and result in suboptimal levels of economic output. Therefore, a new minimum wage law in Nevada will only hurt the workers it’s designed to protect.

(2) Research on minimum wage policy since the early 90’s provides little, if any, evidence that minimum wage laws, as implemented in practice, have any appreciable effect on employment or output levels. Therefore, it’s unlikely that a new minimum wage law in Nevada will have measurable deleterious effects on employment or output.

Focusing only on these argument styles as opposed to their strengths, how often do the people getting dunked on make arguments of type (2) as opposed to type (1)? How often do they express any doubt or sense of probabilism about their conclusions? I’d answer rarely to all of those questions.

I’m thinking specifically of that thread about tax cuts stimulating the economy. There is no evidence (in fact, there is anti-evidence) that tax cuts pay for themselves, and there were approximately zero economists on the IGM expert panel who believed that they would. But if I remember correctly, Mason’s argument was something like (a) he proved it on the back of a napkin and (b) some Trump slapdick had confirmed it by thinking about it. Of course, this is all built on the foolish core belief that government is inefficient, therefore any action it takes (i.e., taxing) throttles the economy by taking capital out of the hands of philosopher king job creators.

Now, mind you, he wasn’t arguing in good faith, but I maintain that the following observation holds up pretty well: the “it’s just simple logic” bros are hopelessly married to deduction, their core beliefs immutable and their ability to update and generalize from observable phenomena limited. It’s especially noticeable in libertarian/ancap/Austrian economists who eschew empiricism in favor of logic principles–and Ben Shapiro. Why that particular type of reasoning seems to be associated with so many ethnonationalist and phobic conservatives baffles me though.

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Iowa Caucus Predictions... SEASON Thread

My meditation teacher likes to say that there are three ways to relate to the world, doing, feeling and thinking, and that people tend to have one that is their primary mode, one that’s a backup, and one that they suck at.

As things are at the moment, the Dems have people who relate to the world via thinking and the GOP have people who relate to the world via doing (think about the emphasis on Triumph of the Will, action for action’s sake, the military etc etc) and there’s a fight over people who relate to the world via feeling. “Feeling” here suggests warm and fuzzy Marianne vibes but that’s not necessarily the case. People who get super upset over abortion relate to the world via feeling. Ditto people who feel a great sense of injustice over immigrants supposedly getting special treatment over Real Americans or whatever. You really don’t want an alliance of Doing and Feeling types where they agree to tell the Thinkers to go fuck themselves, as that describes the Nazis and most totalitarian movements in history.

A lot of the bewilderment Dems have over the behaviour of non-Dems is a failure to recognise that they simply don’t approach the world the same way. This is also the reason we need good stories with clear villains to convince the undecided. Things which logically benefit them if they think about it aren’t necessarily going to make an impact.

original post

The First Trump Impeachment: Wrap Up and AMA (Within Reason)

The First Trump Impeachment: Wrap Up and AMA (Within Reason)

Uh, no, I knew exactly what was going to happen.

Quoting locked threads is a bit of a pain, all quotes from this thread. Context is that there were rumours back then (November) that Vindman was getting fired.

nunnehi:

I don’t get this, man. Have you looked at who Vindman is? For the GOP senators, he is their literal wet dream of what an American immigrant should be. If they aren’t behind him, they will be absolutely exposed for the frauds we already know they are. It will be pounded over and over how bad this is in hearings, and the GOP won’t be able to run away from it.

nunnehi:

There are lines even these people won’t cross, in my opinion.

nunnehi:

No, this is an inflection point. It’s the point where you can tell whether there is any chance on conviction. If this doesn’t move any or many of these GOP senators, nothing will.

nunnehi:

Then we live in an absolute dystopia, and all is completely lost. Dems lose in 2020 in a massive loss, and we get 20 terms of Trumps. The reality is this will make GOP senators radioactive in 2020 and 2022, and I wouldn’t want to be any of them if they try to stand by this shitbag if he actually did this. It’s like the people around here can’t see any trends that suggest all of this shit is mattering.

I am using this Vindman smear/firing as a litmus test of what the GOP senators are going to do on impeachment (I couldn’t care less about how it affects anyone else). This is something that absolutely should move the needle for them specifically because of how they feel about heroes/military people/war, etc., and if it does nothing, nothing, I mean nothing, will.

nunnehi:

Now think about what would happen if he gets away with this scandal. I think even these scumbag GOP senators are going to understand the gravity of this to their re-election chances by the time it gets to the trial (even if they acquit), and if the Vindman firing is real that will accelerate. I can’t see it any other way, sorry.

nunnehi:

Remember, my point is very simple. You’re placing this very particular (not) incident into the mindset of the GOP having not done anything about tons of things that should have moved the needle. I’m placing this into the prism of this guy is an American immigrant war hero with a purple heart who has risen to be a Director on the NSC to these 53 people (the same types of people who defend the traitor Flynn solely because he’s a General), and he is the first fact witness (was on the call) to the crimes Trump is being impeached for. How is it this hard to see a simple difference? If this had happened, and the GOP senators wouldn’t have had their needle moved on this, absolutely nothing ever will. I’m in complete disagreement that this wouldn’t have moved the needle of at least a half dozen GOP senators.

nunnehi:

You didn’t do what I asked. Vindman wears the uniform right now, and I’m quite sure you won’t even once hear Graham call him deep state.

Hey let’s check in on what Graham thinks about the Vindman firing

Lindsey Graham: Trump ousting of Vindman 'was justified' | Washington Examiner

Boy, this must be reflecting terribly on the GOP! Probably the public are up in arms and ready to throw these bums out of office!

image1083×752 127 KB

nunnehi:

Come spike the football at the end of the impeachment process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M6samPEMpM

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Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

You seem to be very close to saying straight up that issues like transphobia and misogyny are niche concerns invented by educated liberals to satisfy their perpetual need to feel morally superior, which seems to imply that these issues aren’t worth caring about, or that nobody authentically cares about them, which is wrong.

I guess I’m saying two separate things:

The same people who whine about being personally attacked by Bernie Bros for not supporting M4A, or having the wrong foreign policy, or whatever, are constantly doing the same to other people for violations of liberal orthodoxy. There’s an example right there in your post where you refer to Rogan as a “sack of shit”; lib types aren’t going to call you out for that, but if I go call someone a “sack of shit” for not supporting M4A, it’ll be whining about uncivil Bernie Bros and their inability to be polite to us nice liberals.

The extent to which even mild transgressions against liberal orthodoxy are treated as sins of the most heinous kind is ridiculous. I’m talking about things like this:

Upon accepting the Rogan’s endorsement, Sanders faced backlash on social media from those offended by the podcast’s comments on transgender people — as well as the nation’s leading LGBTQ group, the Human Rights Campaign.

Alluding to those comments, HRC’s David said in a statement Rogan has “attacked transgender people, gay men, women, people of color and countless marginalized groups at every opportunity.”

“In 2019, 25 transgender people were killed because of the type of transphobia that Rogan stokes,” David added.

Bolded is frankly absolute bullshit and is an obviously offensive charge to level at Rogan. Rogan is guilty perhaps of insensitivity and of being hurtful to trans people; that’s it. The HRC endorsed Clinton over Sanders in 2016. To repeat, Clinton is close friends with Kissinger and voted for the Iraq War. Kissinger’s actions in Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq both resulted in tens or hundreds of thousands of people killed and maimed. If you don’t think Clinton is a more morally reprehensible person than Rogan you’re a moral imbecile.

The extent to which people are cast out from the liberal “club”, as the high priests of the movement attempted to do to Rogan, has nothing to do with actual real-world harm done and everything to do with maintaining the hegemony of an educated elite. Educated liberals are confident they don’t know anybody who would be mildly transphobic like Rogan, all their friends understand the niceties of discourse well enough not to do that. Therefore, he is beyond the pale, cast him and his fans into the fires of hell. They’re less confident that they don’t know anyone who supported the Iraq War, or who is OK with the staggering level of inequality which maintains the privilege of the Ivy League elite. So can’t we be a little polite about those things? Why do these Bernie Bros have to get so mad?

I’m not saying that transphobia and misogyny aren’t genuine issues, but I am saying that the oversized importance they take on in the liberal movement is not real concern for people, but rather a fight for power within the coalition. This is what that looks like:

https://twitter.com/neeratanden/status/1220837347542982656

This is purely and simply a resistance to reorganizing the liberal coalition in a way which includes people like Rogan and excludes people like Tanden. This reorganization is desirable because Tanden does vastly more damage to the advancement of a just and humane politics in America than Rogan ever has, or is even capable of doing. If you disagree with that sentence then we’re not on the same political team.

original post

Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Democratic Primaries 2020 - Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Man, where was Warren the last 4-6 weeks.

I think the Warren from last night is the authentic Warren, and the watered down version that lost her toehold on the nomination was the over-consulted to version. One of the worst features of modern American politics (and there are a lot of bad features) is that there is a large consulting class that hovers around candidates looking to hoover up their money in exchange for terrible inside-the-beltway recommendations that largely amount to moving to the middle to where lobbyists can make more money. When people complain about lack of sincerity in federal politicians, a lot of it comes from this consulting class and their outsized influence. They polish up candidates to be appealing to insiders, which is almost diametrically opposed to what is appealing to the general public.

original post

I’ll try not to wait a month before the next update.

RiskyFlush · February 21, 2020, 7:13pm

There is so much good shit in here, it is going to take until the election to read it all. Thank you for collecting these.

Especially that cuse post on Joe Rogan. It’s in a megathread that runs at too fast a pace for even me, so I missed that one and probably a whole lot else.

Chuckleslovakian · June 5, 2020, 6:19am

bump?

BestOf · June 15, 2020, 8:42pm

This turned out to be a bit of a lie…

I’m going to try to work through the backlog of posts this week, starting with these 20:

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/sars-cov-2-electric-superflu/1265/3603

BestOf · June 16, 2020, 8:32pm

Let’s take a look at 20 more top notch posts from the Unstuck community:

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/things-to-do-while-on-lockdown-for-coronavirus/1242/222

^This one’s a chain of posts, follow it and scroll up

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/why-did-this-forum-split-from-2-2/1035/642

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/lc-thread-for-2020-hibernation-season/1332/583

BestOf · June 17, 2020, 8:21pm

These next 20 finally get us caught up to June at least:

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/the-inso0-ama-now-featuring-its-just-a-flu/1415/171

^another one where you should click and scroll up

^This one has a tweet that I can’t make embed here.

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/why-did-this-forum-split-from-2-2/1035/833

BestOf · June 18, 2020, 8:24pm

These posts get us all caught up, and today we have something special: the first post to be tagged by multiple people.

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/police-murder-george-floyd-then-riot-nationwide-links-to-streams-in-op/1904/3952

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/trumps-america/87/1454

And now, the first post tagged by multiple posters, made of course by none other than…
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1273634152433188865

Link to the post if you haven’t already blessed it with a like.

RiskyFlush · June 18, 2020, 8:43pm

LOL that Trump post is going to soon be the most-liked post on UP

Marksman · June 20, 2020, 1:33am

Really amazing to read through. I spend a lot of time reading these forums but I probably had not seen 65% of those posts before.

Marksman · June 20, 2020, 9:25am

@BestOf

BestOf · July 10, 2020, 6:51pm

Let’s take a look at some more of our best posting:

https://mobile.twitter.com/janemarielynch/status/1274512067119116289
link to post

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/why-did-this-forum-split-from-2-2/1035/1034

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/history-of-the-world-from-a-gambler-s-perspective-a-scholarly-discussion/1998/734

BestOf · August 28, 2020, 7:10pm

It’s been about 6 weeks, let’s see what we may have missed:

COVID-19: Chapter 5 - BACK TO SCHOOL

This reopen-the-school shit is like a perfect microcosm of why and how this entire thing has been so fucked up. There is a legitimate need to get kids back to social environments, yes–I am sure that this is delaying their growth in some way. But the pressure isn’t due to fucking Republicans caring about kids, that’s all bad-faith bullshit. (Just look at how they treat school funding.) This pressure is because the leadership of this country refuses to pay people money to protect themselves because it is bought and paid for by giant corporations that rely on the labor of the parents of these children as their source of profit. Like so many fucking issues in this pandemic, this would be solved by just giving people some fucking money and increasing the availability of testing/tracing. But instead the GOP has distracted millions of Americans with the shiny object of “MUH RIIIIGHTS” and here we fucking are, pretending that we’re reopening schools for the good of the children when really we’re just going to worsen the pandemic, all so that the parents can return to their bullshit jobs without the hassle of dealing with their asshole kids all day.

On another topic

On another topic

Who is this guy?

He was an extremely annoying troll poster who couldn’t be banned because he had nudes of Mason.

On another topic

Was he any good at debating?

No. But can I just say this: a thing I’ve learned in my many sojourns on the internet is how completely useless “debate me, bro” shit is. I just don’t care how good someone is at debating. It’s a quality we glorify because rhetoric was one of the classical liberal arts back in the days of ancient Greece, but the reality is that it’s just so easy for earnest people with good opinions to get snowed by bad-faith sophists with endless layers of bullshit. Just look at this entire cottage industry of Ben Shapiro-style “DEBATE ME!” bros, do you notice how they always seem to have completely toxic views?

To explain all of this is maybe one of the greatest things ever written on the internet. I will recite a passage:

## Libertarianism Makes You Stupid
The Fallacious Proof:
 * Step 1: -1/1 = 1/-1 
 * Step 2: Taking the square root of both sides: sqrt(-1/1) = sqrt(1/-1)
 * Step 3: Simplifying: sqrt(-1) / sqrt(1) = sqrt(1) / sqrt(-1)  
 * Step 4: In other words, i/1 = 1/i.
 * Step 5: Therefore, i / 2 = 1 / (2i),
 * Step 6: i/2 + 3/(2i) = 1/(2i) + 3/(2i),
 * Step 7: i (i/2 + 3/(2i) ) = i ( 1/(2i) + 3/(2i) ),
 * Step 8: (i^2)/2 + (3i)/2i = i/(2i) + (3i)/(2i),
 * Step 9: (-1)/2 + 3/2 = 1/2 + 3/2,
 * Step 10: and this shows that 1=2. 
Even more advanced! Complex numbers have been used for centuries, who can doubt the soundness of their principles?

This is why, as a pure matter of tactics, it’s dangerous to get into preaching contests with Libertarians. Sometimes it’s better to say “1=2 is utter nonsense, and if you believe that from the Libertarian Mathematics, you’ve had your mind rotted”. Now, this does leave an opening for a reply “Nyah, nyah, you didn’t go over every line of that proof and find the error, you have to do that, or you’re close-minded”. But someone could do more good at times by pointing out that there are people walking around spouting the political equivalent of “1=2” than getting into an involved discussion about part x of step y. This is where Libertarianism Makes You Stupid, the grip of subtly flawed logic can overwhelm everything else.
Your boy domer was a master at the “nyah, nyah, you didn’t go over every line of that proof” school of argument. At the end of the day, he was still a fringe weirdo who would get laughed out of climate scientists. I’m old, I’m just done with engaging in clever 1=2 debates with sophist ghouls.

ikestoys was great at “debating.” He would also leap to the defense of George Zimmerman and Brock Turner. Sometimes you just have to understand that 1 doesn’t equal 2.

Arguing about voting, purity, and RIP John Lewis

I once saw someone say that if all concentration camps were of equal size and “effectiveness”, and Candidate A would build 10 camps while Candidate B would build 9, obviously you should vote for Candidate B.

This is a hypothetical so extremely simplified as to completely miss anyone’s point, and possibly be harmful, and yet still it is several levels above the vast majority of the General Election discourse on this forum.

One reason it misses the mark is that nothing is of equal scale or effectiveness. For example, the 9-camp administration could obviously be much more competent. The 9-camp administration could naturally encounter far less resistance from courts, legislatures, journalists, and even protestors.

If there was an ever-growing, organic, street-level resistance movement under the 10-camp administration, someone tasked solely with the goal of designing a way to fracture and dissolve that movement might very well say the best way to do so is have the 9-camp administration come into power so that the movement fights with itself over whether to go hard against the new administration or even fights over whether to challenge it at all.

Obviously it is possible for all this (and much more; there’s infinite other things to consider) to be weighed calmly and rationally and still come to the conclusion that the least amount of harm comes from electing the 9-camp administration. But I don’t think that’s what ANYONE is doing. They have started with the conclusion that feels comfortable, and they will get extremely angry when that conclusion is challenged. Not that anyone on this forum, or the internet in general, with fleetingly few exceptions, is doing anything close to a good job at laying out the counter arguments.

Still, whenever anyone uses the word “purity” I have to laugh to keep from crying. Nobody, not one flesh and blood human, nobody but the strawmen, is saying, “well there are some areas the candidate and I don’t agree.” They’re saying the candidate does active harm, and promises to do even more active harm! They’re saying the total amount of harm between the candidates is either similar or too impossible to prognosticate between.

It kills me that people have reduced this to, “well obviously the only possibility is that people are being vindictive about the primaries, and are willing to harm others to make a point.” Everyone I know that I’ve ever talked to about their decision(s) to abstain from voting or to write in a candidate is someone from a group or groups who are right at the very front of the line for receiving both direct and indirect violence from the state.

But of course all of this discussion is such a monumental waste of time as far as the election itself goes, given how close to zero your individual vote is to make an impact on whether we get Candidate A or Candidate B. The discussion is useful, however, if people are willing to listen (and to speak) with open minds and open hearts and realize exactly how the foundational depths of state depravity can make an extremely politically educated (and extremely oppressed) person choose not to participate in an illegitimate election. Like if we could just get to that point where some of you could say, “OK, I think I understand their position now.” Even if you follow that up with, “but I still think it’s best to vote for this candidate, and that’s what I’ll do,” it would be a monumental shift in your understanding of the state and its power structure and its history that I think would only do good things going forward.

I’m not sure how we get to that point. Contrary to a lot of people’s beliefs, this kind of forum debating isn’t the most conducive way to learn these things. It would have to look more like study groups, I think, where we start off not even arguing. Because right now we have a situation where someone says one paragraph they’ve formulated from 100 books read and 10 years of street-level organizing experience and talking to people who live on the streets, and 12 people come back instantly with very emotional stances on why that paragraph was all wrong.

Democratic Primaries 2020 - With a whimper

Democratic Primaries 2020 - With a whimper

When you are a dick to someone, they are less likely to join your side. That’s why you have to post that meme over and over again. To deflect from the fact that your bullshit turns people away.

That’s literally the first time I’ve ever posted that meme.

That’s why I performatively typed “where’s the fucking macro” as I needed to actually go and find it.

I understand if that part was opaque but it doesn’t change the fact that you just made some shit up.

I also never posted a snake emoji but I did post this:

image1162×161 35.4 KB

That and a number of other posts have been my ace in the hole that’s made me well aware that you people have had no desire to have a real conversation with a real person, rather, you just want to vent at a makeshift avatar of equal parts real things and strawmen.

But it’s never too late!

And, like, I get it. Most of you Lads had Liz-1 and Bernie-2 and now neither of them made it. It was so close; after looking like it’d be a Liz v Bernie contest everything went sideways in a matter of weeks. Then a fucking pandemic happened. Calling it frustrating and disappointing doesn’t really do it justice. Being alive can be unbearable and inside all of us is a deep well of pain and sadness.

Fuck, wasn’t planning on ending a post like that but there it is.

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: Unconstitutional Slop

Not to disrespect George Orwell, but the man laid it on pretty thick in 1984. It’s not in any way subtle. Like, teenagers can and do read 1984 and understand what he was getting at with doublespeak and the Ministry of Truth and whatnot. It’s a great and prescient book on many levels, don’t get me wrong, but it’s also not hard to understand.

A thing that broke me after 9/11 was just how blatant and stupid the fascism was. They weren’t even trying. They actually fucking called it “The Patriot Act” when they created a bill to enhance police state surveillance. The Patriot Act. Like, Orwell would have blushed at that, it’s too stupid and on the nose for 1984. Teenagers reading 1984 would have rolled their eyes if he’d written about a Patriot Act that expanded domestic surveillance. America is dumber than your average 1984-reading teenager, that’s where we’re at now.

https://twitter.com/thejuicemedia/status/1288989754210557960

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: Unconstitutional Slop

I say this with a genuine combination of love and seriousness, because I deeply appreciate all of the fantastic people on UP.

There are a lot of smart people on this forum, and smart people (especially poker players, maybe) are unusually adept at looking for and finding threats in the world around us. That said, I think we need to be careful about becoming an echo chamber for acute depressive thoughts in response to each of Trump’s new weekly horrors.

The dude is a monster, surrounded by monsters, and enabled by monsters. I’m scared too, and my family is in the process of updating our passports. But none of us UPers are made safer by driving each other toward despondent helplessness, and the game isn’t over yet.

Worst case scenario, we can all pile in a solar-powered bus caravan and get some breathless coverage from Tucker Carlson before we bluff our way (right? who else could do it better?) across the Canadian border.

Stay strong, team. We’re in this together.

The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: Unconstitutional Slop

(my pony got stuck watching an ad that it couldn’t skip)

From IRL discussions that I’ve had with people on the right(everything from RWNJs<---->bog standard conservatives) I have discovered an essential part of the desire to share their views via youtube.

It’s important to understand that all people make decisions and come to conclusions based upon emotion, the logical justifications are tacked on post hoc.

They watched a youtube that made them feel smart because the person in the video confidently delivered non-rebutted points that confirmed their “gut” instincts. It is not the concepts or arguments contained within the videos, it is the feeling that they had while watching the video that they are trying to share with you.

The video didn’t steelman their opponents’ arguments or critically examine the positive claims that were being made. So, when they are confronted with disagreement, they feel disoriented because the video that made them feel good about their beliefs didn’t convince them of those beliefs; it only reinforced what they already felt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DBF_NYC/status/1298099551820230660

Police Murder George Floyd Then Riot Nationwide (Links to Streams in OP)

Police Murder George Floyd Then Riot Nationwide (Links to Streams in OP)

The Democratic party is a powerful force in keeping minorities oppressed also. They pay nothing more than lip service to inequality in order to dupe liberals into thinking words mean more than actionable policies.

I take a Chomsky-type view that the Democratic party are the center-right faction(GOP is the far right faction) of the Capitalist party that has essentially had one-party rule of American government. So, I agree that the Dem party tends to be a lot of talk, little action, and have a lead from behind mentality. I’ll reserve judgement for individuals on a case by case basis, valuing action over rhetoric. Which leads us to your next question…

Police Murder George Floyd Then Riot Nationwide (Links to Streams in OP)

Do you really know what their perception is? I don’t know anyone in a militia, but always thought they were primarily anti-governmental authority abuse.

None of us can peer into the minds or hearts of militia members. We can observe their actions though. They can scream from the mountain tops that they hate abuse of governmental authority. They can arm themselves and cosplay ubermench in the woods all day, every day.

In real life, right now, the police are abusing their authority. People(Black, Latinx, white, LGBTQ, men, women, etc.) are protesting that abuse. The police are responding by doubling down on the abuse while committing war crimes on and beating the protesters.

If a militia member was truly against abuse of authority they’d stand in solidarity with the protesters. Instead, we see militia members getting fist bumps and shout outs from the cops. Guess what…they were full of shit. Their words meant nothing. I will judge them the same way I judge the Dem politicians: actions over rhetoric.

Police Murder George Floyd Then Riot Nationwide (Links to Streams in OP)

First must come the solidarity. That means finding and tackling the issues we align on and not get hung up on what we don’t. As I said earlier, Black people being at much higher risk during a police encounter is absolutely a result of systemic racism. But the actual problem at hand here are the out of control POLICE! Why not address one issue at a time so as not to get divided and bogged down, which is exactly what the establishment counts on?

I’m just throwing spitballs. I don’t see how we ever unite when everyone plays right into the hands of the elites by keeping us busy engaged in culture wars

You and I are aware enough to know that politicians who are in the back pockets of the billionaires will never lead us out of the Status Quo Desert of Injustice. Change for the better comes from direct action and grass roots movements.

I don’t mean to have this come off as attacking you. However, even when I charitably read what you wrote, I see it as (uninformed?)criticism of activists who are doing their level best to use the limited resources that they have to bring change to their communities. You and I do not get to tell the people doing the work what order they should address problems in. What authority do you or I have? What expertise do we possess? What track record of success can we point to and say, “You activists should do things the way I feel is best.”?

Those that seek to divide us will always find a wedge to use as culture war fodder. The antidote is solidarity. It’s free to give and impossible to run out of. When I see people struggling for dignity, I don’t debate whether they should be trying to combat police brutality or systemic racism first or second. My solidarity is unconditional.

Danspartan · August 29, 2020, 10:32am

This one is pretty damn funny. I don’t think he lasted a day.

cuse

anon38180840 · August 29, 2020, 10:42am

Two days. Then the Beirut explosion happened.

BestOf · September 25, 2020, 4:34pm

Alright gang, let’s take a look at some of the finest posts of the past 4 weeks:

The Pozzidency of Donald J. Trump: Typhoid Donnie's Slow Hypoxic Demise **Sweat Thread** (updated 100x/minute)

Abortion isn’t their sole issue. It’s their moral escape hatch when confronted about their horrible political views. Their true motivation is racism, bigotry, and other deplorable views. It’s why the anti-abortion crowd keeps finding the worst racist pieces of shit in society to put into office despite having the numbers to determine the outcome of any republican primary. But when they’re confronted about voting for a horrible person, rather than giving an honest answer they can fallback on abortion. It also allows them to believe they have the moral high ground, because without the abortion issue they’d have to confront the reality that the rest of their views are awful.

POTUS BOWL 2020: A MEME IS A WISH YOUR <3 MAKES

To me as a progressive the way I see it is

Trump wins. GG democracy. I have yet to see an even remotely convincing argument from the don’t vote types on why this isn’t true, just lol thats fake news level bullshit. I won’t waste time on why its GG democracy because that has been spelled out clearly.

Yes a lot of the arguments are true that voting for the lesser of two evils has fucked us, the establishment has fucked us and continues to fuck us, but the most important thing that shockingly hasn’t been brought up is…

Demographics, they are a changing. There is only one route for progressives to win in this country. It’s for Biden to win, us to hold onto democracy a little longer, and wait for demographics to change and millennial to become the major voting block. This is literally the only path. Yes the establishment is too strong and it fucking sucked they fucked Bernie and all of us because they’re straight up evil

I was on the fence on whether to vote Biden or not for awhile after Bernie lost, but this became pretty clear to me. Maybe its because I’m younger, and I see how much more progressive my age group is first hand, and maybe if you’re a older progressive this option sucks because you won’t live to see it, but do the younger generation a solid and help us fucking get there.

If Trump wins 0 chance of progressive change in mine or anyone heres lifetime.

If Biden wins I think its inevitable. I mean look at the progress we’ve made in the last two elections, of course the old ghouls are going to fight us tooth and nail and we will lose battles but time is on our side.

POTUS BOWL 2020: A MEME IS A WISH YOUR <3 MAKES

POTUS BOWL 2020: A MEME IS A WISH YOUR <3 MAKES

POTUS BOWL 2020: A MEME IS A WISH YOUR <3 MAKES

wait for demographics to change and millennial to become the major voting block

What % of millennials do you estimate will still be voting blue by the time they’re the majority?

Some here might consider me moderate. 2018 was my first party line vote. I will never vote for anyone in the GOP right now as long as I live. They towed the line for this, so they are dead to me. I have friends right of me on the political spectrum who say the same thing.

POTUS BOWL 2020: A MEME IS A WISH YOUR <3 MAKES

We ain’t getting ours. Even the ones who do see what it’s done to their friends and it disgusts them

Yep. I’m sort of getting mine, but I’m about to risk my health to keep it because not having it is a threat to my health too.

I have friends who have been forced to leave this country by the policies of this administration. Friends who, by the way, are more idealistic about the good of America then most Americans despite being progressive. But they have scary last names and brown skin, so they don’t get the opportunities they want. This enrages me. I will never vote for anyone who supported the party and the man who took that from them. No tax cut, no amount of money, no policy can rival the desire I have to see them handed their pink slips by voters.

I have friends being forced back to work or working in less safe jobs because of the pandemic. My best friend’s wife is like 8 weeks backlogged on receiving her unemployment benefits. She’s a teacher, she’s terrified to teach in person. I gave her some KN-95s yesterday. I will never vote for anyone who supported the party and man who wanted to send her back and put that worry and anguish on her and my friend.

I have a friend who lost his net worth paying his dying mother’s medical bills because insurance wouldn’t cover the treatment that might save her. Then he lost his business from the pandemic, and his side hustle. So he drove Uber, caught covid, and 4-5 months later he still has symptoms. I will never vote for anyone who supported the party that allowed all that to happen to people in the richest country on this planet.

My 71 year old dad is bowling weekly in his league. 50 people, most not wearing masks, he took his off. A couple weeks ago he was mocking anti-mask people. Now he thinks he’s safe, and keeps denying that if he gets it my 72 year old mom will too. I will never forgive the monsters pushing bullshit that made him feel safe to do that, whether he gets lucky and avoids it or not.

The GOP is dead to me. There is nothing they can do to ever get my vote.

ACAB (formerly G Floyd) - Tyre Nichols video released, it's bad

I can just imagine a bunch of enlightened unstuckers crowing about how slavery abolitionists haven’t even come up with a plan for how plantation owners are supposed to make money if we get rid of slavery. Some people are saying they’re fine with indentured servants, some people aren’t - you can’t even agree on what you mean by abolish slavery! And we’re still waiting on an example of large scale cotton and tobacco production that DOESN’T rely on slaves.

That’s not even getting into the practicalities - black people don’t exactly have the highest approval ratings, and meanwhile like 50% of our presidents have been southern white men.

Why don’t we focus on laws that prohibit certain TYPES of lashings, and maybe make a publicly accessible record of the abusive slaveowners. We can hire some people to travel from plantation to plantation and give sensitivity training. Maybe require some type of two year degree before being eligible to bid at slave auctions. You know, something that has a realistic shot of becoming law. If we’re really lucky, in 10 years we can pass a law mandating that a minimum of 15% of slaveowners are women or POC.

https://unstuckpolitics.com/t/moderation/942/2446
This post was flagged so it can’t be quoted or posted here, clicky click.

The Pozzidency of Donald J. Trump: Typhoid Donnie's Slow Hypoxic Demise **Sweat Thread** (updated 100x/minute)

Stolen from a friend-for those of us continually struggling to figure out how Trump could still have a solid 42% support despite 200,000 Covid19 deaths and the most corrupt and inept administration in our nations history, this explanation is as good as any:

“To answer the question-- Why do people continue supporting Trump no matter what he does?

A lady named Bev answered it this way:

“You all don’t get it. I live in Trump country, in the Ozarks in southern Missouri, one of the last places where the KKK still has a relatively strong established presence. They don’t give a shit what he does. He’s just something to rally around and hate liberals, that’s it, period. He absolutely realizes that and plays it up. They love it. He knows they love it. The fact that people act like it’s anything other than that proves to them that liberals are idiots, all the more reason for high fives all around.

"If you keep getting caught up in “why do they not realize this problem” and “how can they still back Trump after this scandal,” then you do not understand what the underlying motivating factor of his support is. It’s fuck liberals, that’s pretty much it.

"Have you noticed he can do pretty much anything imaginable, and they’ll explain some way that rationalizes it that makes zero logical sense? Because they’re not even keeping track of any coherent narrative, it’s irrelevant. Fuck liberals is the only relevant thing. Trust me; I know firsthand what I’m talking about.

"That’s why they just laugh at it all because you all don’t even realize they truly don’t give a fuck about whatever the conversation is about. It’s just a side mission story that doesn’t matter anyway. That’s all just trivial details - the economy, health care, whatever.

"Fuck liberals.

"Look at the issue with not wearing the masks. I can tell you what that’s about. It’s about exposing fear. They’re playing chicken with nature, and whoever flinches just moved down their internal pecking order, one step closer to being a liberal.

"You’ve got to understand the one core value that they hold above all others is hatred for what they consider weakness because that’s what they believe strength is, hatred of weakness. And I mean passionate, sadistic hatred. And I’m not exaggerating. Believe me. Sadistic, passionate hatred, and that’s what proves they’re strong, their passionate hatred for weakness. Sometimes they will lump vulnerability in with weakness. They do that because people tend to start humbling themselves when they’re in some compromising or overwhelming circumstance, and to them, that’s an obvious sign of weakness.

"Kindness = weakness. Honesty = weakness. Compromise = weakness.

"They consider their very existence to be superior in every way to anyone who doesn’t hate weakness as much as they do. They consider liberals to be weak people that are inferior, almost a different species, and the fact that liberals are so weak is why they have to unite in large numbers, which they find disgusting, but it’s that disgust that is a true expression of their natural superiority.

"Go ahead and try to have a logical, rational conversation with them. Just keep in mind what I said here and be forewarned.”

I’m going to re-read this every time I get frustrated with Rs blatant hypocrisy. Bev nailed it.

The Pozzidency of Donald J. Trump: Typhoid Donnie's Slow Hypoxic Demise **Sweat Thread** (updated 100x/minute)

The reason why we get hit with the Lol lawbros schtick isn’t because the courts don’t rule against Trump. They do. A lot. The problem is that, even when they do, the rulings come down so late and the enforcement mechanisms behind them are so weak, that significant damage has been done and cannot be undone by the ruling.

How many changes did Trump get to make to the Muslim ban before he finally found a version that passed muster? Did anyone in his administration suffer significant consequences for drafting the unconstitutional versions or were they basically on a freeroll?

Are hundreds of sorting machines going to be reinstalled before the election? Are people going to be compensated for the consequences of late checks, medicine, and food?

Has Congress or the NYAG gotten the Trump tax returns yet? Did I miss some Congressional testimony from Don McGahn?

I get the inclination to point to rulings as signs that the rule of law is still working, but, at some point it’s also necessary to look beyond the formalism and realize that, even when the rulings are going against him, the resolution is so slow, and this administration is so brazen, that a couple of bench slaps aren’t actually preventing or repairing the harm.

Donations

Donations

Missing posters

Do you accept Skyline Chili gift certificates?

The most recent donation has been received. Thanks?

image612×672 188 KB

I will of course provide a trip report of my consuming this chili, but I’m not sure when that’s going to be.

Unstuckers get restless and demand a conclusion to this saga.

Donations

I want to know if you’ve eaten the chili or not.

I attempt to put them off by making a Trump-like claim of “just a few weeks”.

Donations

I still have not used the skyline chili gift card, although I will probably be doing so this month

Month’s almost up, spidercrab. When is this going to happen?

Answer

Am I worried? A little. After all, fellow Ohio resident Trolly tried to warn me:

Donations

Don’t eat the Skyline, man. It’s a trap.

But as the card says,

Today was the day I entered Skyline Chili, and Skyline Chili entered me.

For those of you who haven’t had the pleasure, here’s the menu:

image1129×774 588 KB

image1137×766 527 KB

I had $25 to burn and since I haven’t yet reached suicide-levels of self hatred, I planned to stretch it out over a couple of visits. Today I went with two items:

image881×402 179 KB

image843×334 119 KB

Back at home:

image691×572 221 KB

The unveiling:

Cheese Coney

image632×898 248 KB

And?

The verdict

This was not bad! The mustard and onions added a nice flavor to the chili cheese dog, and the steamed bun ensured that neither the hot dog nor the chili were too overpowering.

This was a relatively small item (only 350 calories per the menu), and it makes for a good snack. Would buy again.

Next up, the Coney Bowl. The unveiling:

Coney Bowl

image693×821 267 KB

Oh no. Let’s mix it up and hope it looks better.

Coney Bowl, attempt 2

image698×898 376 KB

Better I guess? Not really. This does not bode well.

And the taste?

The Verdict

There’s no other way to say this - it was really gross. Hot dogs, on their own, are not great. This chili, on its own, is very bad. The congealed cheese was the MVP of the dish, but I can’t emphasize enough how low that bar was. The combination was a trifecta from hell.

I would never purchase this item again. I ate it more than 7 hours ago, didn’t eat anything for dinner, and I still feel this clump of garbage in my stomach. Trying to address the distress with a drink:

image675×607 178 KB

But it’s not really helping. I suspect I’m going to be cursing @NhlNut over the next 12 hours.

In any event,

image569×924 325 KB

The good news is that I’ve still got $15 of the original $25 left. Can’t wait for part 2.

Neither can we, spidercrab. Neither can we.

Trolly · September 25, 2020, 4:41pm

Is there an address where we can send spidercrab a gift card for food that isn’t terrible?

WichitaDM · September 25, 2020, 4:44pm

Donations thread is way more amazing that I thought I guess.

CanadaMatt3004 · September 25, 2020, 4:53pm

Better yet, is there a place we can send gift cards for food that is much much worse?

Riverman · September 25, 2020, 5:27pm

The calorie counts on that Skyline menu are the most preposterous lies I’ve ever seen in print.

RiskyFlush · September 25, 2020, 5:29pm

I would pay to fund @Riverman on an Anthony Bourdain style travel show where he experiences the distinct cuisine found only in specific parts of the world, except he only visits Trump-branded properties.