No one is forcing you to keep the shitshow rolling.
1 Like
1 Like
2014 is the important date to point out here.
Once the Maidan Revolution occurred, there was no going back from an outcome where Ukraine is invaded by Russia militarily. Belarus style puppetry was violently rejected and permanently out of the question. No NATO or EU isolationism would have changed the fact that Russia would invade, and the outcome would be horrifically violentāthis population clearly wasnāt going to capitulate.
I guess you can extend this to pre-Maidan if you want, and say no outcome in which Ukraine wasnāt under Russian control would have been tenable for Putin, long term. The main question of responsibility for the US is then to what extent we aided Maidan.
But once that occurred, thereās simply no tenable alternative to let Ukraine be invaded in a war where 100% of the country looks like Bucha. I mean, even without US support, Ukraine still would have fought like banshees, Russia still would have been bumbling and undisciplined, and weād have an entire country fighting the Russians with pitchforks and molotovs.
The only decent thing was to give them a fighting chance.
4 Likes
Itās a discussion better suited for the other Ukraine thread.
Letās look at Belarus FFS. The Belarusian people were not only forced to accept a brutal dictator at the point of a gun, they are now being conscripted to commit atrocities on the Ukranian people against their will.
Maybe you and some others ITT are such cowards that you would blithely sleepwalk into such a horrible situation but the Ukraninan people said fuck no to that.
Least you could do to respect their courage is give them your unequivocal support and stop concern trolling about their clear eyed decision.
3 Likes
I mean from the perspective of the north Vietnamese. Without support from China and USSR they would have had to capitulate to USA. Think of how much less fighting bombing and death there would have been in that scenario. So, should the communists have just left north Vietnamese on their own once it was clear that France and USA treated it as a vital interest?
We savy folks hear in the US knew that Putinās Russia is brutal, violent regime that would not accept rejection but the Ukranians next door had no idea! This whole mess is really the fault of Western NGOs that pulled the wool over the eyes of the Ukranian people in 2014!
Gtfo with this child minded gibberish.
1 Like
You are such a gallant and brave poster on the internet. I can you hear you roar right through the tubes.
Uh, what? I think youāre gravely misunderstanding my position. I agree completely.
Okay, now weāre at the stage where you suck at reading and also deciding to be an asshole for no reason.
Cool posting.
At least Iām not such a coward that I am out here questioning giving people weapons to fight back when their neighbors are being raped, killed and thrown in ditch because the āUS has no legitimate interest in such a thing and thus even a trivial chance of blowback on me is unacceptable.ā
Trivially low bar, I know, but youād be shocked at what cowards some people are.
But Iām not saying the US supporting Ukraine is bad for Ukraine. Iām saying itās bad for the US.
And Iām not naĆÆve enough to think we donāt do this ALL THE FUCKING TIME all over the world and the only difference this time is the propaganda you all have been swallowing by the gallons.
Everyone got to be indignant. Thread status: success
2 Likes
But basically every historical example (France supporting American colonists, USA supporting Afghanistan, Soviets supporting North Vietnam) actually worked out great for the country supporting the guerillas/freedom fighters and poorly for the power directly involved in the conflict, and they never really got that close to a direct confrontation much less a nuclear exchange.
France and Britain were in direct confrontation. Not really relevant though.
The difference between Vietnam and Afghanistan and Ukraine is that Vietnam and Afghanistan didnāt really brush up against core American and Soviet interests. They were kind of discretionary wars. Does Russia view loss of control of Crimea the same way that the US viewed losing Vietnam? I donāt think so.
Hot take but I think destroying dams is bad, except when the ents do it.
2 Likes
Stop making the systemic rape, torture and murder of the Ukranian people your soapbox for other issues, itās fucking disgusting.
People agree that our current support of the Saudis, the Iraq War, the Vietnam War, etc. are horrible so what is your problem? That they donāt agree hard enough?
I take issue with the part of your post that the US has any responsibility for Maidan. Pro-democracy NGOs and US ambassadors emailing people are trivial factors that exist everywhere at all times that the coward losers like to cling in order to confirm their āevery bad thing that happens in the world was ultimately caused by the USā world view.