Do you do this same thing for everything in sports? Why are we letting genetic freaks like Phelps win all the medals? Why isnt he competing against sharks and other water based mammals that he was clearly born as?
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By your argument, who can say if slavery was bad? How can we possibly quantify the detriments to the slaves or the benefits to slave owners? Unpossible! Should we abolish slavery? Who can say?
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You donât get slavery abolished by providing objective proof of its badness.
Maybe not, but thatâs a different issue from being able to agree that itâs objectively bad.
The badness of slavery is not objective either. Evilness and factual wrongness are orthogonal concepts. For avoidance of doubt I agree with you that slavery is bad.
But not objectively bad?
Yes, that is what my post says. The âbadnessâ of slavery is a subjective evaluation of it. I agree with that evaluation. I think that people who disagree with that evaluation are bad people. That doesnât make it objective.
Slavery is not objectively bad is quite the hot take. Didnât see that one coming.
But weâre really straying from the point. I guess if you want to just say itâs all feels, that doesnât change much. I guess your feels donât really make a lot of sense if you accept what the scientists are telling us.
I donât know, you can try with me.
Having the right to exist is not the same as being allowed into womenâs sports for example.
I am pretty much in favor of letting people use whatever bathroom they want.
Though I might not be a good candidate bc I agree that itâs an issue that affects very few people.
Iâm pretty confident in my defense of bathrooms. Literally just last week there was a woman at my table going on about how she wouldnât feel safe with a trans woman in her bathroom. I pointed out that she was about a thousand times more likely to be sexually assaulted in the parking garage than in a public restroom. Not sure I made any progress, but she didnât (couldnât?) dispute it
Sports is much more difficult for me. When people bring up that a physically stronger trans woman took away a scholarship from a cis woman, or when they acknowledge the benefits of inclusivity and belonging that sports brings, but point out that there are plenty of other group activities that achieve this, I donât know how to defend this
I think the biggest issue for most people is that they donât really believe or accept the science behind trans issues. This is evidenced by their insistence on continuing to call trans women men and that itâs almost always trans women they have a problem with
And Iâm as ignorant as anyone. Until Risky posted some extremely helpful links, I too didnât realize that gender (among all of us?) is fluid rather than binary. I want to be part of educating others, but I donât want to upset or harm trans people in the process
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For the bathroom thing, ask if she thinks that bathrooms should just be specifically separated by genitalia. If so, show her a picture of some buff trans guy with a thick beard and be like âhe has a vagina, so youâd rather he use your bathroom then?â So many of these people donât even realize/acknowledge that trans guys exist so this could be a huge gotcha.
Then again her opinion could be like âthose people should use the family bathroom if there is one, and if not they need to just go squat outside or hold itâ, in which case that argument doesnât work anymore, but at least you can tell her sheâs an asshole.
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Yeah, I donât really think that trans women should be in womenâs sports at the competitive level because the logic for splitting is all about physical capability and has nothing to do with social constructs of gender.
For little kids, eh, Iâd let them do what they want. Iâm not sure where the line is exactly but probably around HS.
Under the same logic I would completely abolish âmensâ divisions and those would just be âopenâ. Which in practice will almost always mean men but if anyone can qualify and compete at the highest level I donât see why they shouldnât be allowed.
Edit: I have no idea what is wrong with the quote tags
Edit2: the /quote needs to be on its own line, interesting
Yeah the sports thing is weird for me. On the one side you have people saying âof course thereâs a lasting advantage to having gone through male puberty, not the least of which is physical sizeâ, which seems to make sense on its face. But then Iâve heard that studies have shown that after being on E for a certain amount of time thereâs literally zero difference in performance.
Itâs one of those things where I havenât done a deep-dive reading about it because it doesnât affect me personally, so I get that itâs dangerous to just go with that first argument because it seems like good conventional wisdom.
See I donât think itâs that dangerous. Excluding people who were born men from womenâs sports is just perfectly fine even if there is some chance that the medical treatments they underwent removed their inherent advantage.
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Friendly reminder that this topic was created for support and that there exists another one specifically for trans people in sports: Trans Issues In Sports/Society
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Fair enough I wonât respond further on the topic here.
I used to think this, but there are plenty of scientists whose job it is to study this shit and they claim if certain guidelines with respect to hormone levels and such are followed, then there is no advantage in many sports.
If you donât believe that, do you have anything more than feels to base it on?
I mean, I 100% expected this kind of stupid response because you arenât even following the conversation. You think weâre arguing about slavery now. But slavery is a topic on which I agree with you completely. We are actually arguing about the definition of the words âfactâ and âopinionâ which is a topic on which you are objectively wrong.
Those are your feels! This whole detail started when you tried to dismiss my opinion because it was âjust feelsâ. Yes, no shit you think your feels are right and my feels are wrong. We havenât disagreed on any objective fact anywhere (except for the definition of objective fact).