Ok one more time because this is bothering me way more than it should. Implying that what I said is remotely like saying N. Korea is democratic is actual sophist gibberish.
For the third and final time, my main point and the only part I thought was interesting or possibly discussion-worthy material is that on a small scale: I suspect that when done well all by normal, decent people - all political philosophies will converge on a similar-looking set of rules that the community needs to survive - while still maximizing human freedom.
Let’s take the libertopia article I posted as an example. It turns out a few residents are feeding the bears, which is causing them to associate humans with food, making them aggressive and now several residents have actually been mauled in their own homes.
The town calls a meeting:
Communists: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Socialists: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Capitalists: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Scandanavia-style social democracy enthusiasts: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Anarchists: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Anarcho-marxists: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Some system that elects a king every year: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Bob’s new awesome political philosophy that no one’s heard of yet: Karen, stop feeding the bears.
Libertopians: Well actually, it’s not our place to impose restrictions on Karen’s personal freedoms … [goes on for 45 more minutes about first principles] …
That’s it. That’s the basic point.
Let’s look at my original post that spawned all this nonsense:
Man what an asshole I was.
The stuff I said about large scale was only thrown in after Sabo felt the need to attack me over saying small-scale. I have Sabo on ignore, so it could have ended there. But it didn’t.
Yeah I personally have doubts that anarchy can work on a country-sized scale for human beings with our manifold flaws, Rojava notwithstanding. Shoot me. Marxism/communism in practice always seems to wind up as totalitarianism, which is sustainable but seems like a less than desired outcome to maximize human happiness. Neither of these is really a controversial take, yet certain posters will immediately go on the attack and imply I’m the one taking crazy pills. The AC-ists did the exact same thing.
That’s it. I’m definitely out this time. I assume some political term I used will get parsed into a giant no-true-scotsman thing again. But I made my point.
So… it looks like a “no” for this teachable moment. And us UnStickers can look forward to more ignorant interjections regarding the ACers/etc/etc going forward.
imo Sabo is one of the few people itf who have the imagination to think of ways in which society can be improved beyond the usual tropes of UHC and higher income tax for the wealthy (as if Scandinavia is some sort of Utopia - it’s the same as the UK was from 1945 until the 1980s, lol).
This is funny too. Somehow certain UnStuckers are still fighting the Cold War.
Of course… the only peep who brought up the USSR/etc was the poster above himself. It’s like he farts his nonsense out, then starts in arguing with his own farts. LMFAO still fighting the Cold War in 2020 !!!1!
Of course, some have documented and commented upon the historical intersection of punk & horizontal. Culture, including music, has always, and will always, be an integral part of the movement.
ETA:
Punk’s long run as a breeding ground for anarchism shows how much we stand to gain from social activities that are pleasurable and creative.
Let’s chat a little bit about delusion -vs- bad faith.
So far, there’s been -zero- Communists here at UnStuck. AFAIK the only Communist back at 2+2 was einbert, and he didn’t follow us over here to UnStuck. So there has been -zero- people advocating for Marxism, or a Marxist revolution on this forum.
Zero, zilch, nada.
So why is @suzzer99 always carrying on like this? Is it because he is delusional and is arguing against himself in all these quotes above (and several other too)? Other possibilities are… he’s chatting in bad faith, and is assigning views to others they don’t hold; he’s chatting in bad faith, and just using “Marxist” to name-call and troll.
Victor, I spent a few weeks in Cuba about 20 years ago before it became Westernised.
It’s a fascinating place, and education and health services are astonishingly good for such a poor country, but claiming the political system worked is plain wrong when basic liberties are curtailed and political opponents jailed.
A large part of its apparent success lies in the character of the people, who are switched on, socially inclusive, largely anti-materialist (and far more interested in the world around them than a lot of the people itf), as well as the Caribbean climate.
A country that guaranteed everyone a minimum wage and rations of rice to ensure no one went without also paid street musicians the same monthly wage as doctors and surgeons.
As my travel companion observed, if you were to somehow move Cuba into the Baltic Sea it would suddenly seem an awful lot less convincing in that hostile climate.
Ultimately it is/was a brave, even necessary, but failed experiment.
