I agree with just about all of this, fredd, but doing SS as written in 3hrs a week is a tall order.
I get all that, but the attitude of heavy compound lifts being like the pinnacle of H&F just put me off. In my opinion the running and high intensity cardio do more for me functionally in my daily life than lifting heavy ever would. I guess as a pie chart I divide a bunch of stuff that make up my ‘health and fitness’ and in that forum the pie chart seemed completely dominated by strong compound lifts. But as Melk said perhaps I’m just out of touch as it’s been a few years since I’ve actually paid attention to it.
There are two guys training for marathons whose logs are on the first page.
He looked large in the last photos I saw but he stopped reporting so I can’t know his exact weight. What’s not disputable is that he regained a very significant amount of the weight which means he lost control or never actually had control. This is predictable and one of the most consistent effects borne out in diet studies.
This sounds like a folksy, unscientific explanation. It’s not the same reason in a biological, physiological, or any other technical sense, and I’m not even sure a metaphorical comparison works. Appetite is strongly regulated by a specific and specialized system of hormones and pathways, and we have some idea about what happens when genes that encode different parts of that system get wrecked.
For example, completely deactivating mutations of leptin or its receptor result in insatiable hunger, hyperphagia, and morbid obesity beginning in early life. It’s a driving force of hunger, and surely no one with a clue would call that food addiction. Instead, what opponents fixate on is that monogenic forms of obesity are rare and physiological in nature, as if the story somehow ends there and is limited to just a handful of mutations of the most extreme type.
In order to believe that, you also have to assume that (1) we’ve already discovered everything that’s relevant to this system, (2) there are no partially deactivating mutations complicating the issue through low penetrance or mild phenotypes, and (3) there are no downstream mediators / targets that play important roles, all of which are comically bad assumptions. In fact, a significant amount of morbid obesity is explainable by other polymorphisms in just one of these pathways.
What’s clear now is that YTF’s suspicion about a genetic basis was almost certainly correct, yet nearly everyone laughed at him for it. So it’s odd to suggest that the forum would have generally been in favor of him seeking real medical advice when they were convinced he was simply a moron. At best what you’re saying is that they wouldn’t have objected to him seeing a professional. They should have been strongly recommending from the start.
Ok, you are correct, the scope of fitness does seem to have diversified in the last few years, I will get myself up to date and bow out for now.
1 Like
I don’t think YTF being genetically predisposed to obesity really changes that much.
There are people who are genetically predisposed to being able to run a marathon. But most people if they train long and hard enough can do it. I have no problem believing that YTF was dealt a bad hand. I’m not going to pretend to speak for every single person who posted in his log, though.
But let’s just say you’re right and it’s all in his genes and there is really no behavioral component to his over-eating. What exactly do the pros suggest in that case?
EDIT: I believe he claimed that he had already seen “professionals” (not sure of qualifications) in the past so he was really interested in trying that again.
Are we actively encouraging people to go back to 2p2 now? There has to be as good or better places.
1 Like
There are a lot of things that could change. For starters, someone could have corrected his understanding about where the actual problem might lie. If I’m remembering right, his genetic theory implicated SlOw MeTaBoLiSm which is the first thing that laypeople reach for, but that didn’t seem to be his problem evidenced by his ability to lose weight through calorie restriction.
Few people hypothesize that their problem is food intake because it sounds like a confession and is usually treated that way. My recollection is that he eventually accepted the explanation that he was a moron with no genetic component, the implication being that his inevitable inability to control food intake must be due to a character flaw like lack of self control. That is the stupid and dangerous corner that people like YTF frequently get boxed into.
The problem from the outset was that he was morbidly obese and described a degree of hunger similar to people who cannot be biochemically satiated. That is alarming and requires a doctor. What could have happened from there is impossible to know now because he never made it that far, but the answer is certainly a range of outcomes that exceed taking bad advice from an internet forum and dying.
And then what? Spend a bunch of money and end up in the same spot? I’m actually quite interested, because I’ve lost more than 50 pounds something like 8 times, and cannot keep it off. I’ve just kind of assumed by now that it’s a character flaw.
Starting Strength is really good, I am myself a user and an advocate, but there’s no way to look at it in 2021 and not acknowledge that it’s become a Rippetoe cult of personality. He pretends that it is the best program for everything and that’s simply not the case, and his cult members treat his Word as Gospel and any counterpoint, no matter how reasonable, is treated as Heresy.
When I first started reading H&F, I hadn’t started training yet with the ex-body builder and new squat about lifting weights. I was shocked to find out that literally none of the hardcore weightlifter and body-builder types at his gym had even heard of Starting Strength or Rippetoe. Based on H&F I just assumed the whole world was on it, or at least knew about it.
1 Like
Ive long had a theory that the success of SS is linked to intermittent reinforcement or variable rewards.
Much like gambling. You get the biggest dopamine rush when rewards arent certain, and these types of rewards drive addictive behaviour.
With SS. Every work out you never know whether you are going to fail, hit 4 reps, or nail all 5. That rush when you hit a set you werent sure of, variable reward, just like winning a pot when you were all in preflop.
A lot of the other succesful programs are built around some kind of uncertainty on lifts as well.
Would make sense that a forum for gamblers was SS focused.
When I was young I wanted to make continual gains. Now I just want to get to a certain level and maintain. Which demotivates the workouts some. But also the workouts get easier and easier. So it balances out.
I’m not familiar enough with your case to suggest anything. Are you saying the problem is controlling food intake like YTF?
I mean, if I’m not completely dedicated to losing weight, I’m gaining it. Always. I wouldn’t say that I feel like I’m starving or anything like that, but neither did YTF once he changed the kinds of foods he was eating and switched up to more protein.
There may be some of this. I actually think it’s even more recognizable to a political forum - SS pretends that a complex thing is actually very simple, and that if it isn’t working for you then you’re doing it wrong, no amount of evidence to the contrary can refute this simple heuristic. It’s political conservatism as a fitness regime. Oh look it’s also toxicly masculine, surprise surprise.
1 Like
Sure, that’s what he claimed. Then he disappeared and regained a small person’s worth of weight so not sure I believe it.
How though? I assume you log and have accurate records that indicate how/where you are gaining. You are unable to control your intake, your BMR is lower than what models predict, etc.? This is how I narrowed in on the source of my problem.
Well that’s probably because it’s hard work to continue logging and working out and eating healthy (in his case, lots of protein) endlessly, so he probably slowly started eating stuff that wasn’t satiating and ended up in the same place as before. Being hungry and then eating more shit that made him more hungry.
And the same thing happens to me. (Or I usually think of it more like I do it to myself.) At some point I fall off logging and meticulous meal prep and I absolutely cannot seem to lose or maintain for very long after I stop.
I mean I know almost exactly my BMR - it’s within a percent or two of what all the models predict. But unless I actively dedicate an insane amount of willpower and energy to planning, tracking, etc. I just fall off and eventually gain it back. And usually an extra 5 or 10 each cycle. So while I used to be 40 pounds overweight, I’m now like 80 or 90. My doctor tells me to eat better and track what I eat.
Sure, it’s impossible to know, but have you like, um, met people. How many people see a doctor, get a diagnosis of obesity, and then find the answer to their problems such that they maintain a healthy weight for the rest of their lives. You’re acting like him seeing a doctor was some sort of lock to cure him of his obesity.
Furthermore, he mentioned he had seen doctors about it before and obvious stuff (e.g thyroid function) was supposedly fine. He also had not the best insurance and had limited means. There is very little chance that he would have enrolled himself in some sort of top-notch medical weight loss program. He also repeatedly said that he had tried seeking medical help and in his experience it was worthless.
So, I’m not disagreeing that it would have been a great idea for him to seek that out. However, he made it clear he wasn’t going to do it.