Yeah the fact that it’s common sense, backed by polling, and backed by my own personal experience makes me think it should be pretty uncontroversial… but apparently saying blatantly obvious stuff is ‘ad hominems on Bernie Supporters’.
If you guys think the quality of schooling that poor less educated people are getting makes them more informed than the median voter you have a poor understanding of what any of the preceding words mean.
This is obviously true.
Then why defend the god awful meme that was probably planted by the fucking Russians?
I don’t recall defending any meme russian or otherwise.
You want to talk about Bernie’s record, so I have a few questions.
Bernie currently has a lot of pro gun control policies on his website. However, during his broader political career he has been far more pro gun than you would expect given most of his other lefty positions. He voted against the Brady Bill multiple times and consistently argued that he opposed certain waiting periods and other restrictions because he was following the wishes of his constituents in Vermont. (See https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jul/10/generation-forward-pac/did-bernie-sanders-vote-against-background-checks-/ ) Given this record, should I expect a Sanders administration to do anything big when it comes to guns, and, if so, why?
Was Bernie’s decision to vote for the 1994 Crime Bill (he expressed concern about some of the tough on crime parts, but liked the parts that addressed violence against women and some of the spending provisions) an acceptable compromise?
What, in your opinion, is Bernie’s greatest policy achievement.
This is what you Bernie supporters have been arguing for as far as the rest of us knew for quite some time:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/cp6zrz/faces_of_the_oligarchy/
The meme sure did it’s job. That’s what makes me, 50 posts later, think ‘damn I’ve been had’. I would have even tolerated it if Warren’s face hadn’t been on it. I’m 99% sure in retrospect this meme’s entire reason for being is to get Sanders and Warren supporters to fight.
Just because you’ve strung together a series of factually correct words doesn’t mean that it actually proves a point. It’s clear that you’re trying to use the average education level of Bernie supporters as a point to discredit Bernie’s candidacy, which is kinda like… an ad hominem attack.
I’m saying the average Bernie supporter has limited knowledge of politics or history. That’s only an ad hominem if it isn’t true. And I’ve made plenty of excellent arguments ITT that discredit Bernie that had nothing to do with his supporters. Bernie not being a good candidate for president is another reason why a lot of his supporters from 2016 are already on the Warren bus. Hopefully the rest of you join us soon before Biden takes the whole thing… But I’m not remotely confident that Bernie (or his supporters) have the maturity to do that.
Oh it does have to do with data. You always chime in all smarmy like with dumb one liners like “He would’ve one!” all the time. When we in fact know the Russians did interfere in the elections via social media or otherwise. They hacked into machines in my state for certain. So statements like that are in complete denial of current Bernie’s popularity not being what it should be.
I’m not even going to pretend to be nice here.
And it’s a way of responding to complaints that Bernie is too far left (he would have won), and that we need a centrist to beat Trump (you had one last time and she didn’t win) because otherwise people will stay home (they stayed home for the centrist last time), never-Trumpers and independents won’t vote a progressive (just like some progressives actually voted for an idiot like Stein rather than settle for yet another neo-Liberal centrist, plus never-Trumper are also never-Dems).
This is an oversized word salad. I’m going to need for you to define neoliberal. Because that just seems to be a different way to say capitalist, and not all capitalists are neolibs, and you sound like an uneducated bumpkin using it so freely. No one besides people inside your bubble speak like that. So who’s the actual person bloviating?
The problem here is, you and others, refuse to take a moment to reflect when people state their qualms with Sanders or his supporters
(except microbet, he seems to) and instead act like sanctimonious little pricks when someone (in this case skydiver) says something you don’t like.
Might want to check the definition of “ad hominem” again.
Tbh I don’t want to get involved in this, so I’ll bow out. I think the attacks on Bernie supporters are unproductive. I think Bernie supporters’ attacks on other candidates are slightly unproductive. I don’t mind that they are pointing out legitimate concerns with other candidates–that’s kinda the point of this whole process.
Edit to your edit: FWIW I would be thrilled to see either Bernie or Warren win the nomination. I really don’t think the crowd saying Bernie > Liz = everyone else crowd is nearly as big as you think, though they’re certainly loud. I suspect nearly all Bernie supporters are somewhere around Bernie > Liz >> everyone else.
Absolutely agreed there. That’s why I feel zero guilt for pointing out that Bernie did the whole country a huge service by moving the whole debate left in 2016… but that he’s one of the 2-3 worst possible choices in the field for the actual job of POTUS. Donald is obviously the worst, and then it’s a very close race between Bernie, Biden, and that health care CEO Warren snatched the soul out of in the last debate.
Glad to see my push for 75 or under is having an impact.
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1160960368501563393
Are you just naming Democratic Senators from red/purple states? Because otherwise grouping Sherrod Brown and Bob Casey is pretty terrible.
I think Bernie has been soft on guns and it’s a problem I have with him. I would expect he’ll advocate for and sign any gun legislation that the dems put forward if he were president, but I don’t think he will frame his agenda around it in the same way he will economic issues. With that said I don’t think anybody in the field has proposed handgun bans or mandatory buybacks/confiscation which is what I think needs to be done.
I don’t know the details of the 94 crime bill, but as you might guess I don’t find the “well it had good stuff in it and we needed to compromise” excuse to be compelling. I think it sucks and I don’t think Bernie has adequately apologized for it, at least as far as I’m aware. I think Bernie comes from a very good place when it comes to race issues, and I don’t have any concerns about how he would govern on that front, but I also don’t think it’s ok to just wipe that under the rug.
In terms of policy achievements, obviously he isn’t going to have a lot. I view that as an indictment of the rest of the Democratic Party rather than of him. Like, it’s an achievement in itself to advocate for single payer healthcare through decades of Clinton/heritage foundation healthcare bills and propaganda. I would much rather support someone who stood alone for m4a than someone who helped craft the ACA, for example.
This may sound like bullshit, but if Warren was there with Bernie in the 80s and 90s on the right side of things, she’d probably be my number one rather than my number two. As it is, I have a really hard time trusting someone’s instincts when they self identified as a Republican in the late 90s as a full grown educated adult. I’ll obviously vote for her in the general, and in the primary if it’s clear she’s got a shot and Bernie doesn’t, but any progressive president’s job in 2021 is going to be more about shaping public/congressional opinion than it is crafting practical policy and I trust Bernie to fight harder for the things I care about.
Sometimes in a big argument I’ll pick out one person in an “opposing camp” and say something to the effect that everyone but them is being unreasonable. It’s a rhetorical tactic.
I’m trying to not be in the middle of a big flame war and would like to avoid despising a huge swath of unstuckpolitics posters, but…
Bernie is a boss
Him not enacting a bunch of huge legislation as one of a tiny number of progressive Senators and Congresspeople in the last 25 years is way more LDO than a valid criticism and what he does get is a lifetime achievement award.
Criticism that “There are Russian Troll farms doing this, but we hate BernieBros anyway” is lol.
Criticism that “Bernie is an absolutist, but look he is a huge sellout who compromised on X” is also lol.
Anyway, hopefully I will go back to staying out of this, but felt I should comment since my name has been brought up a few times.
They were “moderate” dems who could have lost in 2018. Sherrod Brown said Medicare for all is impractical so would 100% be attacked as a moderate by berniebros if he was in the 2020 race.
I’m not even saying he’s bad at what he does, which is be an activist. Being the POTUS isn’t that job though. There’s absolutely nothing about Bernie’s resume that suggests he’s any good at compromise, getting things done, or changing his mind. Those are basically three of the main things you have to do every day to be a good president.
Being good at one job does not make you good at doing a totally different job with very little overlap besides the running for office part.
Sherrod Brown is not moderate. Tammy Baldwin is in most respects also pretty progressive. Kaine, Stabenow, and Klobuchar could be fairly called moderates. Casey is Joe Manchin-lite. If he wasn’t so dependent on coal worker unions he’d be a Republican.
Bernie was a popular mayor and while he was a progressive he was also known to work with the developers and other businesses.
He was criticized a few posts up for “compromise” in voting for the crime bill. He’s also voted for a ton of compromise bills - every major funding bill is a compromise bill. It’s hardly like Bernie votes against these things significantly more often than most Democrats.
As someone said earlier this is people trying to have it both ways. He and Elizabeth have voted the same way almost every single time since she’s been in the Senate and have supported each other’s bills. Yeah, Bernie supporters should not be ragging on Liz outside of maybe a couple things, but vice versa.
Right, but I don’t see a lot of Liz supporters trashing Bernie.