The goal is winning elections. Then you can pass whatever you want in the middle of the night like Republicans do.
Well what youāre saying isnāt true either, so maybe you should listen to the people who were paying attention the entire time and stop spreading bullshit. Like youāre in the 99th percentile of this country in paying attention to Democratic politics. If you donāt know that Medicare for All was originally used to describe single payer, thatās on you, not us.
You can get all mad at me about it, but with the amount of work youāre doing for Pete, to say that you just conveniently werenāt paying attention at that point is, well, pretty convenient. And since Iāve pointed it out to you repeatedly, and you continue to peddle it, youāre knowingly spreading misinformationā¦ So, itās not an unfounded accusation and it happens to be true.
And for goodnessā sake, itās right in the name. Medicare is a single payer program.
Must be nice. Youāre so out of touch with such a huge chunk of the country on this, and then you act all high and mighty because of it like WEāRE the assholes in the room for wanting to help the poor people getting screwed by the healthcare system.
News flash: healthcare is not one of your big issues in this election because youāre fortunate enough to have good healthcare. Thatās a privilege that a lot of us donāt have - and I say that having better healthcare than plenty of people, but watching my quality of coverage drop every year while my cost goes up. Then you rub our nose in it and tell us how stupid we are to oppose Pete for that one issue.
How many medical problems are you neglecting to get treated due to cost right now? The fact that you arenāt making it a top issue is proof how selfish youāre being on healthcare, and proof of a lack of empathy for MILLIONS of Americans who are suffering. But you like your health insurance plan right now, so they can all fuck right off and wait 10 years - or more, because 10 seems a liiiiitle too ambitious for you.
Thatās some weak ass bullshit.
And thatās coming from someone who genuinely enjoyed your posting and thought you were an awesome person right up until Peteās heel turn on Medicare for All was followed by your heel turn on Medicare for All.
Last but not least, I donāt think for a second that youāre going back to lurking because this thread is only about healthcareā¦ I think itās because you know your position and Peteās position on heatlhcare is out of touch with facts, projections, the mood of the country, etc, and you know weāre not dumb enough to let you pull the wool over our eyes on it with bullshit about the messaging strategy with regard to Medicare for All and how the mean liberals arenāt being nice to pragmatic Pete.
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You seemed to have no problem typing in complete sentences before, while spreading bullshit. Now that youāre being confronted with a request for the cost comparison, typing is a challenge?
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I donāt think Thin_Slicing is being dishonest. I do think you are, though. In fact, at this point since the facts have been presented to you on this exact subject on numerous occasions, I know you are. At best youāre intentionally not looking into it so that you can present the same BS talking point without knowingly lying. Which is just as bad in my book.
Itās kind of funny, too. Like a lot of us have said repeatedly that we donāt like Peteās plan as much, but if heād argue it on the merits instead of using bullshit attacks, we wouldnāt be mad at him for it. Then what do you do? You use bullshit talking points instead of arguing on the merits.
Then Iām the asshole for calling you out? Nah, sorry. You bring weak, bullshit talking points to the discussion around here (and repeatedly at that), thatās on you.
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āYou seemed to have no problem typing in complete sentences before, while spreading bullshit.ā
What bullshit am I spreading? If this is a good political position, why do you think nobody else is taking it? You seem to be conflating policy with politics.
Here is a hint: Donald Trump is president.
Or maybe because iām tired of getting piled on by unrealistic people who choose to refuse to believe what I say about my own lived experience. I LITERALLY just said that, to me, medicare for all meant āuniversal health careā. Iām sorry that you cannot understand how someone could possibly see it different from you. Donāt sit here and try to tell me that thereās no possible way i could have ever thought that, because I DID. I FUCKING DID. Itās like you trying to tell me that thereās no way I ever could have thought that U2 was my favorite band because you canāt fathom that anyone could believe that.
You know, maybe I thought that because I wasnāt paying attention to the health care argument until recently, and the differences between āuniversal health careā and single payer" and whatever other terminology wasnāt something I really ever thought about, but it doesnāt make it not true. Does it make me a shitty person? I guess so, for having different priorities than you.
Iāll be willing to admit that Iām a shitty asshole for not having health care as one of my top concerns if you admit that maybe, just maybe, someone who wasnāt paying attention could have thought that āM4Aā meant āuniversal health careā and not āBernieās billā.
And you know what, even if it did mean āsingleā payer" to you, that STILL isnāt the same as āBernieās billā because there are other ways to get there! goddammit!
And weāre back to the exact same reason i stopped posting beforeā¦someone calling me a liar because of some weird way they interpret my post rather than just reading the words I say at face value.
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Trump: 2020 is about capitalism apple pie and back yard bbqs vs socialist communists who want to make this the next Venezuela and let me tell you 285 billion people died during the communist revolution.
Warren: I want to replace your current private insurance with government health care. it will cost between $14 trillion and $32 trillion.
WONKS: Let us explain! Those numbers are how much it will cost but it will actually be cheaper than what we have now!
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE VOTING IS LISTENING TO THE WONKS.
U2 is my little brotherās favorite band (heās probably close to your age). It is hard for me to fathom.
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I didnāt say it was not possible that you DID think that. Iām saying that now you know better, but you keep trotting out that talking point that lets you attack the left for shifting the goal posts on what M4A means while ignoring the initial goalpost shift by the establishment. Just because you missed that first goalpost shift in real time doesnāt mean you get to play dumb about it once itās been pointed out to you REPEATEDLY.
I never said people could have thought that. My point is that, even if you thought that BEFORE, itās been pointed out to you repeatedly since, and yet you STILL keep ripping on the left for trying to change the meaning back to the original meaning.
Iām good with using it on any bill that goes directly to single payer as quickly as possible. That transition may take a year or two logistically, but none of this 10+ years bullshit.
Thatās a cop out. I know it because weāve discussed this before, more than once. Youāve had the facts on this presented to you. You havenāt disputed them, but youāve kept peddling the bullshit that I keep calling you out on.
So basically when you sayā¦
I canāt help but laugh at you asking me to take you at face value when you and I both know youāre pushing non-truths. Sorry, Iām not some milquetoast anchor on cable news trying to bothsides it, so Iām not going to bend over backwards to not call it a lie. You know the facts, you choose to present contrary information to benefit your candidate, then you get all pissed when I wonāt take it at face value.
Tough shit. Stop lying.
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So you admit that Medicare for All is cheaper than the current cost projections of the current system?
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No idea about the short term but over the long term I am sure it will be better. This nails it:
Not many people love their insurance companies, but that doesnāt mean that theyāre eager to trade the coverage they know for a new system they donāt. Most people probably would end up better off under single-payer, but convincing them of that would be a hard sell; polls show much less support for Medicare for all than for a āpublic optionā plan in which people could retain private insurance if they chose to.
Which brings me to the third point: In reality, single-payer wonāt happen any time soon. Even if Democrats win in a landslide in 2020, taking control of the Senate as well as the White House, itās very unlikely that they will have the votes to eliminate private insurance.
Warren, who has made policy seriousness a key part of her political persona ā āWarren has a plan for thatā ā surely knows all of this. And early this year she seemed to recognize the problems with a purist single-payer approach, saying that she was open to different paths toward universal coverage.
Since then, however, she seems to have gone all in for the elimination of private insurance.
I have no inside information about what led her to take that plunge, but my guess is that she was trying to protect her left flank ā to avoid alienating supporters of Bernie Sanders, who have made single-payer a kind of purity test one must pass to be considered a true progressive. And Iām not going to criticize her for engaging in a bit of political realism; after all, the case against Medicare for all is itself basically political.
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ARGH, that is NOT what Iāve been saying. What Iāve been saying is that the meaning has changed. So someone saying back then they were for āmedicare for allā (like, hey, ME) could have very conceivably thought they were saying they were for some nebulous concept that meant āuniversal coverageā or āsingle payerā or something in between thatās better than what we have now. Hey, guess what, that was me.
I donāt personally see it as a heel turn, because I have always been for universal coverage, and I have never been for Bernieās bill, but if you want to continue to argue that in March or April if I said I was for M4A that I have now flip flopped, be my guest. My position has been consistent based on what I thought M4A meant then, and based on what it means now.
I donāt want you to go back to the original definition.
Itās a terrible political position. People with good insurance are going to be scared that they will be worse off. That will be reinforced by the media. It is so much easier to just run on a vague platform of public option/tax the wealthy/improve Obamacare.
And the absolute last thing you do is tie yourself to a number like $30 trillion.
Trump: āHer plan could maybe work folks. Maybe. Or it could not work and you end up like Venezuela. I had wonderful friends in Venezuela. They had beautiful daughters and big houses and everyone said Venezuela was the richest and most beautiful country but their daughters were captured by MS-13 after the hyperinflation and they had tape put over their mouths and wonāt tell you what happened next but you already know. Go on Youtube and see how socialism worked out in Venezuela and what the socialists did to that country. If you have good health insurance from your employer you deserve to keep it.ā
Warren: āBut first let me tell you the specifics of my policy planā¦ Itās time to wonky up in hereā¦ā
Trump: āI knew a lady once who had to go to the doctor that poor people go to. she went to the welfare doctor and she was very beautiful but they infected her with AIDS. The welfare doctors, in the bad part of town, they donāt always have the time or capabilities to use new needles. So this wonderful beautiful friend of mine, she got AIDS and died three days after going to the welfare doctor for a flu shotā.
Trump: āThis election is about capitalism vs socialismā
Warren: āSocialism could workā
Narrator: Senator, pelase explain to us why people shouldnāt be able to keep their insurance if they like it?
Warren: Well, thatās a really complicated question. Let me try to explain the specific policy details in less than 5000 words.
This:
ā¦is not a description of ālived experienceā as I recognise the term. Itās an objective truth claim regarding a historical fact, which ascribes thoughts and attitudes to people other than yourself and draws conclusions based on the purported fact of those thoughts and attitudes. Certainly, itās in no way privileged or immune to interrogation and contradiction in the way that lived experience as I understand it is.
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youāre right, I should have been more specific.
As the campaign has gone on, I have become more aware that people to the left of me consider M4A to mean Bernieās bill or something very much like it. This is not something I understood before. Maybe it always meant that to you, or to Cuse, or whoever, but to me, the term āmedicare for allā meant something much less specific than Bernieās bill outlawing private insurance, etc. To me, I used it to mean āuniversal health care.ā
Cuse says I should have known better, and maybe thatās true, but if I thought that in March or whenever, what about people who are paying way less attention?
This isnāt just about your personal opinions or views. Youāre attacking Bernie and Liz supporters for trying to shift the definition back to the original one by claiming that your definition of it is the proper/original/fair one.
Thatās basically on the level of Pete attacking her on the cost of her plan. Itās bogus, and you know it, but you keep doing it. Thatās my big issue here.
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So youād rather tie yourself to $40 trillion?
The public can smell that bullshit from a mile away.
Novel concept: letās run our best candidate who has the best position on the biggest issues. Hey look, we can save like a trillion a year while covering everyone, eliminating hassle and improving a lot of peopleās care. Letās try that one for a change and see how it works.
Seems like we ran on slightly improving Obamacare in 2016.
As for Trumpās fear mongering, if weāre going to let it influence our position on anything we might as well just name him POTUS for life and give up now. Heās going to do it no matter who we nominate and no matter what we run on.
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Also Sean, this āI know whatās best for the left just let me tell you but I swear Iām not a right winger,ā charade wonāt get you very far around here.
Nor will dodging the facts.
Nor will increasingly blatant trolling.
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