this guy gets it
50 bigs is a really awkward stack size, as you discovered in this hand you end up having to overbet shove because you can’t 4bet fold. I think if your plan is to buy in short to get a feel for the game etc you should buy in for the minimum so your 3! can be a shove. Assuming you can buy in for 20 bigs of course.
40bb is the better play than 20, as rake in most games will murder you that shallow. Plus you are just rejamming which is boring as batshit.
Seat 1 and Seat 2 are HU on the turn, S1 checks, S2 asks how much he has back and S1 starts to place his stack of ~$275 in green out in front in stacks of 4. S2 shoves as soon as he gets a view, which is before the first stack of $100 is placed down. The dealer assumes that the money being deliberately placed in the betting area is a call and quickly burns and turns. S2 flips over his cards and then S1 says that he never acted on the turn.
What’s your ruling?
What’s the house rule on what is a bet? Betting line, forward motion, etc?
S1 was just counting out his chips upon request, but over the betting line? Not a call, dealer acted prematurely. Seems pretty odd for the dealer to consider this a call or indication of an AI without any verbal confirmation from S1.
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My instinct is to ask the players if they are willing to chop the pot or if they want a ruling. If they agree, problem solved. If not, I’d probably rule that all bets get refunded and the hand gets re-dealt.
Obviously, the dealer screwed up and either player can be angling here.
It depends partly on the house rule about the meaning of putting chips in the betting area. It depends on how fast the actions occurred. But, overall, it’s a mess that I don’t want to sort through because it involves guessing about player intentions.
There’s no betting line, it’s forward motion. What I would consider the betting area for S1 is not very far forward. It’s awkward because S2 didn’t ask for an exact count, he just wanted to see S1’s stack, which was covered by his hand and if someone asks how much you have and it’s half a stack of green, taking it forward and cutting it out in front of you isn’t a standard reaction. Plus, he didn’t start actually cutting the chips until after S2 saw his stack and immediately went all in (so he clearly doesn’t care about an exact count at that point).
Everything happened pretty fast, the dealer made a mistake, but I can understand how he interpreted what happened as a call. S1 should have stopped the action before allowing the river to come out, but he seemed like a less experienced player. S2 is definitely not angling, he’s not that kind of player and he just shoved as soon as he confirmed that S1 had less than a PSB.
I don’t think that S1 was intending to angle with his action, but he didn’t say anything until after seeing the river and the opponent’s cards and I think he almost certainly would have just accepted the pot if he hit the river. I’m also kinda biased against S1 because he wouldn’t shut up and let the dealer explain to the floor what happened.
The actual ruling was going back to the turn and allowing S1 to act on his hand with knowledge of S2’s cards. He folded so I don’t know, but I assume that if he called he would get a new river.
The general rule is that any board cards dealt prematurely with action pending do not stand and go back in the deck. This is true even if it goes bet-call and a card is dealt prematurely while action is still on a third player, who decides to fold.
If you rule it as not a call, then seat 1 gets to act, the premature river is shuffled into the deck, and a new river card is dealt.
I think that in this particular case though, where S1 got to see the river and his opponents hand before objecting, it could potentially be a better, though totally nonstandard, ruling to say nothing about what will happen to the river card and if he calls, then say original river stands.
Maybe I should have posted in this thread. Player folds kk to an open and 3bet shove pre on the bubble of the WSOP main event.
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Yea your added details make it a little murkier. But anyone who is cutting out greens in stacks of 4 I’d just assume is clueless and I’d give them the benefit of the doubt. Conversely who calls an all in by putting in 4 chips of green at a time?! Of course it’s kinda crappy he didn’t say anything right away but maybe he didn’t realize wtf was going on.
Bomb pot hand that I felt was a trivially easy insta-fold, but maybe someone wants to claim I was playing weak-tight.
I have AT53 with nut diamonds OTB.
Boards are TT5 and AQ5 with one diamond. Checked to me, I bet about 2/3 pot and get four callers.
On the turn, wee have TT95 and AQ54 with two diamonds, giving me the second-nut boat on the first board and two pair with a gutshot and the nut flush draw on the bottom.
Player in one of the blinds pots it. He doesn’t pot it into this many people from EP without the nuts. Player in LP repots. He almost never raises turn or river multiway without the nuts unless doesn’t have that much behind and just wants to get it in.
I muck pretty quickly.
I don’t have the same vitriol for your hands as some, but what’s the point of this hand? You pretty much told us your opponents are playing face up. You’re not looking for advice. You’re looking for validation on your people reading
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Bruce magically finds himself in only low stakes games where the player base are all super tight and only play the nuts. No matter where he goes, no matter the city, he finds himself with the only 9 other players on earth tighter than him.
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I have very little double board experience but I’m definitely potting flop.
This seems bad. Even if your read is 100% right (i.e. both players have the nuts on one board) I still think its EV- to fold.
Since only one player can have T9, one player must have 23xx. That leaves 6 combos of 23 and 3 combos of T9. So you should have 66% both players are chopping board 2 and you have board one essentially locked up (only way you could lose is if someone has either 23Tx or 23 with a pair greater than T). You also have some nice equity on board 2 - any diamond, A or the remaining 5 and you scoop, and a 2 and you have good shot to split.
Not going to do all the math, but seems clear that your EV is greater than 33% - rough estimate is 30% EV on board 2 (depends on how many diamonds dead on board 1) and then say 60% EV on board 1. Factor in the dead money already in pot and chance your read is wrong and seems even worse.
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I thought it was an interesting hand that can be used to explain some of the principles that go into big-bet split-pot games.
They’re not super-tight. They’re passive.
Loose-passive and tight-passive players have similar raising ranges. I’ve seen a lot of players spew with strong non-nut hands calling big bets from loose-passives who never bluff and never value-bet medium strength hands because all they see is a loose player.
Pushing with 23 and no T is bad. There are definitely players that I could find a fold, but your considerable equity on the second board makes it tough, so you’d better have a solid read.