If you have any other ideas, then I’m all ears. Engaging people in rational discussion clearly doesn’t work just like championing the policies that most people support also doesn’t work. We’ve been heading in a bad direction for a long time and losing the fight big time.
Cooperatives ≠ State seized and operated
“What democratic socialists want is closer to what exists in Scandinavia or Iceland, expanding what Europeans talk about — a large welfare state in a capitalist society,”
Michael Kazin - Professor of History at Georgetown University and editor of Dissent magazine
I agree that social ownership is breaking down and rewriting the entire system and does not believe in reforms within capitalism, but in a revolution of the system and pols like AOC are in the vanguard of that movement. However, Sanders is advocating working within the existing confines.
The platform Sanders is running on is reformist, and what he is proposing is a US that looks much more like Canada, or Europe—which certainly are not socialist nations. Whether he believes that the end goal is beyond what Europe has achieved, he still isn’t proposing an actual revolution.
This is why the internet sucks. Jesus.
Why do you just add “state” in front of “seized” as if you’re not changing anything? Just to make it more complicated to discuss something?
Social ownership, as the DSA describes, is either worker control or state control. As those are replacing capital control they are either a seizure by workers or the State depending on which option.
Michael Kazin, imo, is talking about what Bernie Sanders means by Democratic Socialism rather than AOC and the DSA. I think they mean social ownership.
I added to the existing post and we seem to be somewhat close to being in agreement
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Because I think there is a difference between new cooperatives sprouting up and existing in competition with existing capitalist corporations on an even playing field and the state seizing said companies by force.
Who says the State isn’t sprouting up new enterprises or workers aren’t seizing control of businesses?
As far as “existing in competition”, that doesn’t really seem like the plan. The plan seems like it’s total social ownership. That is, that’s the DSA’s plan. I don’t think everyone who calls themselves a Democratic Socialist has that plan though - eg Bernie Sanders.
I’m not sure why you think there wouldn’t be a range on this among people who call themselves Democratic Socialists and not only do I think complete social ownership is a more accurate reading of the DSA literature, I’ve been to probably 10 DSA events and know people in the DSA (including my daughter).
I personally think that is the plan in a nutshell, that fair competition between capitalist companies and cooperatives would lead to the former corporations losing out over the long term while cooperatives where every employee is a shareholder and has a vested interest in the company they have ownership in would eventually win out and become the rule rather than the exception.
I’m not arguing with you in that regard, just disagreeing on the execution of the process to get there.
Bunch of wine moms can’t fathom that someone would disagree with them = Bernie Bros are worse than Trump supporters.
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“Let’s check in on the new thread and see if there’s news I’ve missed or interesting conversations”
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So again just to clarify, “everything she could” refers to releasing a M4A plan and not denying an already confirmed rumor right?
The delusion required to think that another candidate’s supporters are more hateful and noxious when every other person on the planet is telling you otherwise is astounding.
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Saying “EDem donor” instead of “joe arpaio donor” makes just as good a point and maintains good faith. You don’t need shady characterizations to be right here.
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Brie Brie Joy is literally trying to start shit with Warren today.
Your evidence there is about comments from people who aren’t pro-Bernie.
But, nothing E.Warren did or said or who she endorsed or failed to endorse has a god damned thing to do with what supporters or surrogates said on Twitter or anywhere else. You may be that big a baby, but she isn’t.
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He means they’re not pro-Bernie in the sense that they’re not helping his cause. Kind of like many itt.
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Quoting my edit since you already resonded.
Because she’s not a fucking baby that’s why. I don’t know why you think she is.