Abolishing the Police

[MysteryConman]

@Trolly

None for nothing, it seems like other countries have managed to have police forces that are somewhat accountable and demilitarized.

Never overheard at any protest against police brutality ever:

What do we what? Police that are somewhat accountable
When do we want it? Some time in the future.

FUCK THAT SHIT. Abolish the police.

[econophile]

we should abolish the police and make all the ex-cops provide healthcare services. two birds with one stone.

[MysteryConman]

@anon38180840

God damn it stop trying to get our side to coalesce around something that probably polls at about 25% approval, lets the right point fingers at the radical left, and has zero chance of happening in the next 20 years.

This is almost verbatim what LGBTQ activists were being told. They didn’t listen, and they made major advances.

[Sabo]

@anon38180840

This seems pretty out there to me. Are there examples in the last 20 years or so of the police violently suppressing strikes?

You mean anywhere in the world? Nothing I said is american exceptionalism. Ask yourself this: why is it so damn important to be able to disperse a crowd that every cop department around the whole world specializes in it? Why is it so damn important to keep the roads open? What is so damn precious that keep a standing occupation force on the payroll? Hint: it’s not only to save their own useless carcasses, and it’s not to hand out tickets.

Every time police escort scabs or materials or product across a picket line a strike is being violently suppressed. The reason they need to be able to disperse civil society is to break picket lines. The reason for extraction teams are to suppress sit down strikes. The reason to keep the roads open is to keep the profit extraction happening.

Without the ability to secure the means of production, and the transportation infrastructure, their whole system crumbles. Everything else follows from this fact.

[Trolly]

@PocketChads

See, the plans are all out there. It’s up to YOU to find them, read them, and support them, or don’t. That’s the whole point.

Are any of these plans actually working in major cities right now?

[WichitaDM]

I hate to break it to you but this is not a country full of rational intelligent people looking for mutually beneficial solutions. It is a country full of bigots and entitled rich people looking to justify their selfish behavior. Source: every single political issue in the country.

[prana]

what what

http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-city-council-members-consider-disbanding-the-police/570993291

[anon38180840]

@anon46587892

Keep pushing for change through the polls with Joe Biden as your saviour. Majority favor M4A, let’s take advantage of this and change health care by running a anti-M4A candidate.

I’m pretty well on the record as not liking Biden and finding it appalling that the Democratic Party doesn’t actually fight on Medicare for All, but you’re kind of making my point here. You think the Democratic Party is going to lead the charge to abolish the police?

@PocketChads

See, the plans are all out there. It’s up to YOU to find them, read them, and support them, or don’t. That’s the whole point.

It’s not just morally correct to advocate for abolition. It’s strategically helpful even to reformers, to have people advocating abolition.

It’s a fine line. It’s helpful to have some people saying that to move the Overton window, but it’s going to hurt us if a lot of people are convinced that’s what Democrats want to do.

@anon46587892

How anyone can think that the police are providing value above replacement in the US right now is baffling to me.

I don’t, I think a majority of Americans absolutely do. Probably like 70% of them. If you’re baffled by that, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m not sure it’s even in the top five most baffling things right now among Americans beliefs. It’s going to have to get in line.

@Sabo

You mean anywhere in the world?

I mean in the US.

@Sabo

Ask yourself this: why is it so damn important to be able to disperse a crowd that every cop department around the whole world specializes in it? Why is it so damn important to keep the roads open?

Obviously to protect the movement of goods and services within the economy.

@Sabo

Every time police escort scabs or materials or product across a picket line a strike is being violently suppressed. The reason they need to be able to disperse civil society is to break picket lines. The reason for extraction teams are to suppress sit down strikes. The reason to keep the roads open is to keep the profit extraction happening.

Without the ability to secure the means of production, and the transportation infrastructure, their whole system crumbles. Everything else follows from this fact.

I don’t think escorting stuff across a picket line is a violent suppression of a strike. It’s fighting the strike, but it’s a lot more complex than you make it out to be.

You and I are also never going to agree on this because I do not want to socialize the entire economy.

@prana

what what

City Pages

Minneapolis City Council members consider disbanding the police | City Pages

If you’ve been tuned into the Minneapolis public safety scene, you know that for years, Reclaim the Block and other grassroots community groups…

Even here, they want to replace it with something else. They don’t just want to abolish it. They are also 2 out of 13 members.

But, hey, I hope they do it and it works and can be a model and we can try it city by city.

[Trolly]

@PocketChads

Were any of the plans to free all slaves actually working in 1850 CSA?

I’m marking your response down as a “no,” but there were most definitely working societies that had abolished slavery at the time. Sorry, but this is just too much like the anarchocapitalist rhetoric of yesteryear.

[anon38180840]

@PocketChads

if anyone is actually being earnest I’ll try to compile a list of things to read about the theory and the examples of praxis but you really should be able to do this on your own, and I have a tremendous amount on my plate right now mounting both a civil defense and a criminal defense in separate cases

These kinds of message board back and forths are really not the intellectual debates people like Louis think they are, and are no substitute for your own research

I’m not really talking about the actual theory and policy of it. I’m talking about the political reality of it.

[NotBruceZ]

Public opinion is not static. Why start bargaining from a compromise position?

[King_of_NY]

who are the parties is this grand negotiation exactly?

[NotBruceZ]

@anon38180840

It’s a fine line. It’s helpful to have some people saying that to move the Overton window, but it’s going to hurt us if a lot of people are convinced that’s what Democrats want to do.

It might hurt Democrats to be perceived as lacking principles and only pushing policies that help them get elected.

[dbvm]

Exactly. When there is no support you don’t change your position. You go out and create support until it reaches critical mass and your goal becomes reality.

[anon38180840]

@JohnnyTruant

That what you are proposing is counter to what this society values. It’s an extension of what we are seeing everywhere.

Things we know are incorrect but pretend is true when we discuss solutions:

Americans think racism is bad or wrong.
Cops are motivated by being peace keepers.
Anyone gives a fuck about the constitution.
Equality is an American ideal.
People prefer democracy that doesn’t fall in their favor to authoritarianism or anything else that falls in their favor.
We are the good guys.
Our system is still salvageable.

I mean, I’m arguing for reform that would help and against abolition that is politically impossible, and you’re telling me I’m wrong because reform is politically impossible?

@NotBruceZ

Public opinion is not static. Why start bargaining from a compromise position?

I feel like I’m starting bargaining from the left-most edge of the Overton window right now. Not only that, I’m not even talking about compromising, I’m just trying to push something that we might be able to count to 218 with in the House and 50 in the Senate with a Dem president.

Or, manage to get establishment Dem votes in numerous cities with.

I’m also not saying that we have to do that and stop trying to do better. We’re at our own one-yardline, and I’d like to pick up 15-20 yards here and then keep the drive going and see what’s working or not working.

[NotBruceZ]

Instead of “abolish police”, maybe you should re-brand it as “repeal and replace the police” and let everyone read into the second part of that whatever they desire.

[TheNewT50]

ITT progressives fall into the exact same trap of bargaining against themselves that the Dem party has been stuck in since the New Deal.

[prana]

I"m not sure the specifics of the arguments going on, I just noticed people say earlier today it was a pipe dream and this got published today so I posted it. Not sure where the 2 of 13 comes from. This quote seems to suggest otherwise:

Fletcher says the entire council “to some degree” has been discussing disbanding the police department as an option.

[Trolly]

[quote=“PocketChads, post:5375, topic:1904, full:true”]Ok thanks for cutting my post in half for your own masturbatory proposes
[/quote]

My dude, it seems like a reasonable q to ask “has this actually worked for a major city in the real world?”

[NotBruceZ]

Feels more like you want to establish the run.