Fuck Bibi and fuck the conservatives, it would be such a shame if we pissed them off by acting humanely. Next thing you know we’ll have to worry about how Putin and American conservatives feel about Ukraine support
In the last few hours I saw Biden being called complicit in genocide by another poster on this forum. Here he is doing the opposite and you think this is wrong. I think he’s doing as good as possible with this situation considering the political reality he has to operate in. There’s no way to do the right thing, he’s going to be second guessed by everyone regardless of what he does and he’s going to be blamed for the actions of both Likud and Hamas despite having little influence over either.
I didn’t say it was a bad idea, if it can help people out let’s do it. I’m afraid its going to get really expensive though and we’re trained to get really upset with the government when we start losing soldiers in far away places, and there are a lot of ways that could happen over there.
I didn’t say it was a bad idea, if it can help people out let’s do it.
I really misunderstood your first post, sorry if I was a little aggressive. I do agree there is risk of situation spiraling or just regular old political backlash at home for not unconditionally support Israel, and think it’s admirable that Biden is probably trying to do this regardless because it’s the most moral thing possible in his political environment.
I also think US is the only nation that could pull this off, but if we can secure the channel for aid then many nations can provide it.
The military isn’t the police, the military is trained and told to not do certain things under any circumstance and the higher ups know which people they can rely on to follow those orders.
Nonsense. I’d probably trust a random soldier to do the job over a random cop, but soldiers aren’t perfect. They are capable of acting impulsively and excessively in stressful situations (especially if they have prexisting biases against the people they ultimately commit violence against) Mai Lai, Abu Gharib, National Guard firing at a CNN reporter during the George Floyd protests… Soldiers exceed their orders all the time.
And, it’s not even clear what the rules of engagement would be in that environment. While the mission would be delivering aid, they also have to be prepared if they do get attacked (either by Hamas or just some random folks with guns who are trying to get the supplies)
I’m not trying to bash soldiers, just pointing out that this would be a volatile situation, and there is potential for things to go sideways. I even think the benefit of getting supplies in probably outweighs the risks, but there are risks.
The moral thing would have been to not torch the entire state department. He could have voted for a ceasefire in the UN security council vote. He could have given the IDF a single actual bit of pressure other than just being like “oh well what can we do” when Israel cuts off supplies and starts slaughtering literal children with our weapons, wholesale.
Takes like this really make me think people simply aren’t paying attention. The time for action was months ago, when it was quite obvious the IDF was gonna do a genocide. Every single thing that has happened so far they said they would do and the US has been staunchly alongside for the entire time.
And by the way, maybe months ago there was a semi plausible argument that genocide was not happening but it is beyond clear now. People that insist otherwise shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.
Didn’t watch, not going to watch. Regardless, whatever Biden might do going forward doesn’t mean those things would have been politically possible 3 or 4 months ago.
What’s the right thing? Call out an ally and turn them into an enemy who then starts trading with Russia and China more instead of the West? Maybe Israel becomes more of a dictatorship then and goes full genocide with camps as education and news in the country deteriorates.
I want him to take a stand against Israel, but I’m not a diplomat and I don’t know what the right course of action is to get the desired results. We’ve already seen public opinion shift to the Palestinians everywhere outside of Israel, but I’m not sure how that improves the situation inside Israel.
What is the specific right thing that you think Biden should do at this moment, that he could conceivably accomplish without Congress and with a hostile court, and that could not just be undone by Trump in less than 1 year?
I’m not sure I’m following. You think taking any stance other than full throated financial, military, and geopolitical support for the slaughter of women and children would be bad for him politically? No wonder the democrat party is so fucked.
I think there’s far more evidence that his actions in this conflict have very seriously pissed off a significant portion of his base, and republicans were never going to like what he did no matter what. I’m really not sure I follow this line of thinking at all.
And as we stand right now anyway, it looks like if the vote were held today he’d lose. Besides - why would you even want a president that’s even sort of okay with this? Would there be more civilian deaths under trump? I seriously doubt it.
I think it’s not a top ten issue for the vast majority of Democrats. I think the issue is a dealbreaker for a small minority, but I’m not convinced that failing to support Palestinians enough costs more votes than failing to support Israel enough and that losing votes due to the latter hurts more because those voters are more likely to switch to voting for Trump for a net change of -2 rather than -1.
If anyone thinks full throated support of Israel is not the policy preferred by majority of American voters you guys need to get out of urban centers and go on an NYT style safari in some midwestern diners to interview the local voters.
You’re viewing this in a perfectly black/white vacuum. It’s not like biden wasn’t involved at all in the situation that led to this. It’s not like there’s no middleground option here. It would be much better geopolitically (and morally, because that’s the context in which this argument was presented) to simply abstain and not support the wanton killing. It really is not like there is only two binary choices, kill every last man woman and child in gaza and the west bank or otherwise we’re just fucked. There’s a clear oppressor here, there has been for years, and this situation very much kicked into full gear in the obama administration (people like skydiver like to forget he was around for that too).
So, in a sense it’s like, ok if you totally ignore all context and history here, every terrible decision Joe biden has made here has led to this so therefore this is a good decision doesn’t really change the fact he should’ve folded preflop. I see wild delusions on this forum and others that Genocide Joe is some secret genius. What if he’s exactly what he appears to be - a doddering establishment fool that’s now in his senility showing where his true prejudices lie.
