As I’ve said many times in this discussion I am not saying the response to Jewish oppression has been good. I am saying it is understandable. There is no doubt what is happening today in Gaza is wrong. As was what happened a couple weeks ago in Israel. My entire thesis has been it’s the ultimate intractable problem because it’s not a case of those with historical power oppressing those without it. It’s two groups who historically had no power which makes it much more nuanced.
No its a case of those with current power oppressing those without it. Its not intractable because the solution lies in Israel’s hands.
That’s like saying the fact that African American families are much more likely to be single parent is because African Americans are worse parents.
You are just willfully ignoring the context. That’s inexcusable when you actually know the context.
Yes, the solution right at this moment lies in Israel’s hands but the same can be said for Hamas a couple weeks ago. This is why the entire argument I just made for the Jews can also be made for the Palestinians.
To be charitable, I don’t really follow the analogy. But the solution has been in Israel’s hands for decades, Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust or the oppression of jews elsewhere.
ETA - you might remember that before I fell through a leftist trap door I was advocating for a two state solution, your post seems to be something about whether Israel should be wiped out completely?
The analogy is that the reason Jews have built up one of the most powerful militaries in the world, and why Israeli politics has always had a hardline Zionist constituency, is because of their history not because they are inherent oppressors. That is why the comparison to white nationalists is so offensive. White nationalism is a defence of the historical power structure. It’s people who have always had the power enforcing that power. Jewish nationalism is the exact opposite.
For those who care, i’ll sum it up.
For Israelis and Jews with strong connection to Israel - Zionism is the right of Jews for a homeland. There are no anti-zionist Jews in Israel other than Ultra Orthodox fanatics who think Israel existence as a secular state means the Messiah won’t come.
Many Israelis and Jews with strong connection to Israel want a two state solution, oppose settlements and occupation and want to end the occupation.
All Israelis and Jews with strong connection see “Anti Zionism” as an anti semitic trope. Because it is. Even the biggest critics would consider themselves Post Zionists and critic the current state of Zionism, never the neo-nazi propoganda written here by Jake777
You can use “Anti israeli government”. “anti occupation”. “anti criminal war crime regime”. “anti fascism”. “anti populism”. “pro peace”. “pro justice”.
Netanyahu doesn’t own Zionism. Neither does Likkud or any other leader. My grandparents were Zionist they ran away from the Nazis and Lithuanians who tried to murder them and reached Israel who they learnt and dreamt about since childhood. Sepharadic Jews who were forced out of Arab countries in the millions were not white supremacists. Neither were Ethiopian Jews who walked for months to reach Israel.
Oppose Israel’s government policies. Oppose neo-nazis russian propagandists.
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Would desire for a one state solution (ignoring feasibility) be considered anti-Zionism (or is that the post-Zionism you were talking about with NB?)?
One state with full right of return to Palestinians would be a post-zionist solution in my opinion. But post-zionism is based on the notion that zionism as an ideology has fullfiled its goal. To secure a safe homeland for the Jewish people.
You did however write “desire”. I think it’s the most zionist thing possible to want a one state solution where Jews are safe. But implementing it is post-zionist.
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i was just kinda making a joke, being honest with you, i don’t know enough about either zionism or israel’s far right to give you an answer 
i’m not even sure what point i was trying to make, i guess yuv was saying like “if you want to get rid of israel, what would you do with its inhabitants?” and i thought, “what are we doing with palestine’s inhabitants?” bc it doesn’t seem like there’s a plan for that.
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Exactly! That’s why its intractable!
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You made the point I was refering to. we need to fight for Palestinian’s right for a homeland. We need to fight against those who want to deny it. We need to fight against those who want to deny a homeland for the Jewish people.
That’s why people like that deflect whenever you confront them with it. They don’t want anything other than opression. The only different are the opressed.
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i’m sure you’ve answered this at some point, but what would your vision of a palestinian homeland be?
i’m interested bc obv you’re there, and you’ve been pretty damn reasonable throughout everything. even as i sit here kinda rooting for the palestinian people, i can’t tell you that if hamas attacked youngstown, ohio that i wouldn’t be like “fuck them bitches, level it” 
Is Israel hoping that Egypt will give up and allow people from Gaza to move there or do they just want to punish them?
Military wise Israel is trying to clear the way for a ground invasion (which involves mass bombing the northern side and exposing any tunnels) while also making loud noises with fighter jets to keep the people pleased.
Also keeping “pressure” on Hamas to free the hostages although tbh not sure how much that’s a priority for Bibi sadly.
-not an endorsement of Israel’s military action so far, just an attempt to answer the question-
i dont think Bibi wants any of the hostages released, tbh.
It could be useful for this tread to explore a concept of Zionism that cashes out the idea in terms of human rights rather than strictly Jewish rights, that is rights that any person or people would have if the correct circumstances apply.
I’m going to subject myself to tons of ridicule here, but I truly don’t understand some very basic things about this whole situation and if even a small % of people are as ignorant as I am, maybe an answer to some questions could be helpful…
First, what does “Jewish people” even mean in this context? I never understood why people of a given religious ideology need their own country. Ideally, Jews should be welcomed everywhere. There are American Jews, Russian Jews, and I assume Jewish people live in many countries as do Christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc. I honestly don’t understand why a Jewish state is so important
I also don’t understand why Jewish people have been persecuted for so long seemingly everywhere since biblical times. I’m not even sure how much of the bible is true regarding Jewish people. But there’s no doubt that in America a lot of people don’t like Jews and I have no idea why
Again I know my ignorant questions might be very offensive to Jews and I really don’t mean it to be. I’d really like to understand wtf is going on
Edit: I know a lot has to do with the Holocaust. But I don’t even understand if Hitler was committing genocide against a religion or a people? Like if he committed those atrocities against Buddhists, would it be the same? I guess what I’m asking is, what makes a person Jewish?
These are reasonable questions but reading a few Wikipedia articles is probably easier than asking random posters to explain it all to you.
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