Not clear exactly what you are arguing, but it doesn’t seem like a good argument to me.
The article mentioned things like “paper thin mattresses” and harsh treatment. Is it abu grabe or war crimes? If it isn’t I don’t much care assuming the red cross has access.
It also mentioned things like prisoners needing to have amputations because of improper use of handcuffs. Don’t know how accurate that is, but seems like it could cross into war crimes territory.
2 Likes
I read that article horrified by paragraph after paragraph and then came back to the thread only to read your response.
You have made me physically disgusted. Like a serious, full body reaction.
I’m going to step away for a bit
9 Likes
Is whataboutism really the best response to that article?
1 Like
Really, seemed like an inflammatory minimally sourced article with the pictures provided being prisoners blindfolded behind barbed wire who weren’t allowed to converse with one another. How would you design wartime prison camp in Israel’s position?
I think Israel brought this conflict on itself in part through settlements, not working for a Palestinian state (as though they had a partner to work with), killing Rabin, and repeatedly electing Netanyahu and his right wing coalitions.
However, whatever Israel has done, the Palestinians have been at least as bad over decades, and I see very few pro-palestinian offer anything but maximalist positions. What is your proposal for lasting peace that isn’t equivalent to the end of Israel?
Hamas started this conflict on October 7. Clearly they had a plan. You don’t get to hit someone in the face with a baseball bat and then cry when they hit back. Where is Egypt, where is Saudi Arabia, where is Jordan with proposals for peace that involve Hamas? Hamas’ only friends seem to be western leftists.
1 Like
Oooooo, so close
1 Like
7 months in, what exactly was their plan? And how has it gone so far?
Step 1: attack music festival
Step 2: hide amongst Palestinian civilians
Step 3: ???
Step 4: profit.
I was being sarcastic. Their only plan was to kill people and maybe inflame a wider middle east war to destroy Israel. Odd, doesn’t seem to have worked.
I’m fully prepared to argue that Israel has been total asshole as for the last 30-60 years. What disturbs me is people not willing to do the same about Hamas. They are religious zealots who want the destruction of Israel. If you only give your opponent the option of fighting to the death and they are stronger than you, then good luck with that. Maybe pitch a tent in NYC and complain about the unfairness of it all.
Oh nos, this is settler colonialism dating to the 1920s. Well, what about the colonialism from the 700s with a bunch of religious nuts killing everyone that doesn’t convert. Why stop the timeline at whatever arbitrary date. Maybe return the holy land to its true owners, the Romans.
Hamas, or something like them, will always exist so long as there is a perception of occupation.
Well, unless there are no more Palestinians.
Return the area to who had it before it was taken by Abraham, the original colonizer from Ur of the Chaldees.
2 Likes
Seems like there’s a good chance they were hoping to incite a disproportionate response from the Israelis causing Israel to lose support from its global allies. May not have been their plan from the beginning, but seems plausible that they saw that’s what was going on and rolled with it.
I think that was their plan. Induce a disproportionate response that kills like 5k Gazans and use that for…profit. (They probably also wanted prisoner swaps. The current proposal is 30 Palestinians for each Israeli.)
Instead, they end up with Sabra hummus banned at UC Riverside and some cancelled graduations.
1 Like
I’m not sure they had a well thought out long-term plan, but it was clear they were losing the “peace” so likely went into YOLO mode in the hopes that shaking up the status quo might be better (it also might be far worse, but I guess in their view better to roll the dice). The current trajectory was Gaza/Hamas losing support/funding as more Arab countries normalized relationships with Israel and in general people just stopped caring and moved on to new causes.
3 Likes
There is something seriously wrong with you. They dehumanize them, they beat them, they run dogs at them, they perform crude medical procedures without anesthesia. There are worse passages than this, but just to give a summary of what Simp thinks is fine:
They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.
“(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,” said another whistleblower.
The IDF did not directly deny accounts of people being stripped of their clothing or held in diapers.
And these aren’t all fucking combatants
The law permits the military to detain people for 45 days without an arrest warrant, after which they must be transferred to Israel’s formal prison system (IPS), where over 9,000 Palestinians are being held in conditions that rights groups say have drastically deteriorated since October 7.
They’re killing doctors
Two Palestinian prisoners associations said last week that 18 Palestinians – including leading Gaza surgeon Dr. Adnan al-Bursh – had died in Israeli custody over the course of the war.
And another doctor’s experience (the guy pictured above)
Al-Ran, a Palestinian who holds Bosnian citizenship, headed the surgical unit at northern Gaza’s Indonesian hospital, one of the first to be shut down and raided as Israel carried out its aerial, ground and naval offensive.
He was arrested on December 18, he said, outside Gaza City’s Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital, where he had been working for three days after fleeing his hospital in the heavily bombarded north.
Al-Ran was held in a military detention center for 44 days, he told CNN.
You pretend you’d care if it was “Abu Ghraib and war crimes” but you’re the exact kind of person who would have cheered on Abu Ghraib
9 Likes
This is a problem if it is true.
What does this mean, how is this information obtained, how is this “reputation” known? How are the “interns” failing their job in relation to normal doctors? Does Isreal not have doctors on standby to oversee prison camps? (Of course they do not.) How good are the doctors Hamas has provided to Isreali hostages? I saw one missing an arm, maybe he slipped and fell?
So Israel is treating wounds with bad interns but the wounds are actually neglected? And prison hospital smells?
This is a significant issue if true. It is a policy or something that happened on a few occasions when a prisoner took a swing?
Aren’t prisoners everywhere stripped of clothing? They tend to smuggle things if not. Diapers are not great, but it’s not inhuman as such things go for makeshift desert prison camps. I would expect jumpsuits and prison uniforms and don’t see anything saying that’s not happening.
You are the one who is lapping up thinly sourced propaganda by a group of religious fanatics who started a war against other religious fanatics.
And, again, are you willing to condemn Hamas and the treatment of Israeli hostages?
I would be in favor of a joint UN commission to investigate and punish all war criminals on each side. Would you support handing over war criminals associated with Hamas? What about for rigging elections in Gaza and running a theocratic dictatorship that demands the extinction of Israel? Do you believe 10 million Israelis should die or forced to leave Isreal? What’s your solution to the status of Gaza and the West Bank? Eternal complaining because the Israelis are such jerks?
You’re lapping up the koolaid from what is basically Isis with a better PR team. Would you support Hamas in a war vs the Palestine Authority?
I hope everyone involved with Oct 7 is caught and killed. I wish for the same for Netanyahu.
Hokie the intern stuff you just posted isn’t really compelling at all. I don’t know the Israeli medical system off the top of my head, but medical trainees typically take very good care of their patients… and they’re likely seeing pathology, penetrating trauma, they don’t see much of and find exciting to treat
But what about the rest of it? Seems odd to focus just on some minor point like that when we also reading about the Palestinian trauma surgeons getting arrested and/or dying in Israeli custody
2 Likes