UNOfficial Community Vote: Unstuck Politics is a democracy

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https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/805e1e94-a583-46aa-a83a-7709ff3cbfef#WPtY_T6t.sms

[Sabo]

Beastie Boys - Sabotage

[alex]

I didn’t say they were the only ones at fault my man. But I would like to note that their side is the one that is supposed to be good at organizing and extolls the virtues of worker-operated decentralized power structures over traditional business construction. This was their time to shine.

@Sabo

@alex

You namedropped 1 person, but of course you and your cult members are the principal agents that led to this.

You have me confused with some other user.

Instead we got ~170 posts from the likes of grue and friends bickering

@Sabo

In the context of actual real world activism, the word ‘sabotage’ has a particular and somewhat technical meaning . It also has a history. It can be very effective. A recent example in the news was how the ILWU won their new contract. Check it out.

However, none of that is relevant to unstuck. Nobody could use the kind of IRL sabotage I’m speaking of because… we don’t do anything, useful or not. We’re just a fan site for a buncha ex-poker players who enjoy the offerings political entertainment complex. In the context of unstuck the whole idea doesn’t even make sense.

The internet is the real world

Edit: reply up top supposed to be to ripdog

[Sabo]

@alex

But I would like to note that their side is the one that is supposed to be good at organizing and extolls the virtues of worker-operated decentralized power structures over traditional business construction. This was their time to shine.

Some tried, me included. But that was not the direction the community wanted to go in. I’ll recount the history here in quotes…

In the beginning, even before the name was even adopted, the unstuck community started at the exiled website. The community initially started out using a consensus process. That “worked” when two committees were delegated: the infrastructure committee and the governance committee, It worked" again when the infrastructure returned a report recommending the discourse software/etc. And it “worked” once again when the community as a whole accepted the infrastructure committee’s recommendations.

However, it “failed” in the governess committee. That wasn’t for lack of effort. Initially a respected unstuck pioneer attempted to facilitate the governess committees work. Later, I attempted to facilitate. What happened was both of us ended up walking away in futility. The problem was we couldn’t conduct a meeting because of all the heckling, and abuse.

That was the end of consensus democracy in the unstuck community. Way back on exiled, before we even called ourselves unstuckers. Everything else has not been consensus based. Nothing that has happened at the current site has had anything to do with consensus democracy.

You can’t do a democracy of any sort, censenus, town hall, representative, or any other kind, unless folks want to do a democracy. If a majority want no part of it, not only won’t it “work”, and trying to make it “work” would be minority rule, which by definition isn’t democracy.

A majority wanted no part of democracy back on exiled, that’s why they heckled the committee. A majority has never wanted democracy on this site either, They want an “owner” above them. A whole lotta unstuckers, maybe a majority of active posters, registered at Ponies, a site which touts as a feature not having any democracy, They don’t want democracy. A majority are happily voting out democracy here as we speak.

Cliffs: Nobody “ruined” democracy at unstuck. Instead, collectively unstuck doesn’t want democracy. Never have, and prolly never will.

@alex

The internet is the real world

Sure. But as unstuck doesn’t do anything, there is nothing to sabotage. So in this little corner of the interwebs, the whole concept isn’t relevant.

[CaffeineNeeded]

@Sabo

Some tried, me included.

Sir, some of us remember the captains thread and won’t be so easily gaslit. Sabotaged is exactly the right word for your behavior

[alex]

@Sabo

You can’t do a democracy of any sort, censenus, town hall, representative, or any other kind, unless folks want to do a democracy. If a majority want no part of it, not only won’t it “work”, and trying to make it “work” would be minority rule, which by definition isn’t democracy.

Idk I bet if you ran the poll in the OP 3 years ago it would pass resoundingly.

Sure. But as unstuck doesn’t do anything, there is nothing to sabotage. So in this little corner of the interwebs, the whole concept isn’t relevant.

There were a few attempts to Do Something, particularly in the first year. Those were torpedoed by protests and threats of withdrawing donations among other things.

[Sabo]

@alex

There were a few attempts to Do Something, particularly in the first year. Those were torpedoed by protests and threats of withdrawing donations among other things.

Again, in the context of activism, the word sabotage denotes certain particular kinds of ‘doing something’, it’s not a generic term for ‘doing anything’. Often, this is expressed as “the conscious withdraw of cooperation”. Protests and such are not sabotage, in this usage. What is sabotage in the usage is what the ILWU did, which was a work slowdown.

As unstuck doesn’t produce anything, there is no work to slow down/etc, so there’s no way to exert pressure that way,. There isn’t anyone to exert pressure upon anyways. As there is nothing going on, there is nothing to sabotage, again, in this usage,

[MimosaDef]

How’s your baseball dog?

[Sabo]

He’s doing fine. He’s starting to show some age (he’s 11), but he’s got plenty of good dogging left in him. He’s got tix for his Padres next month.

[MimosaDef]

Lucky guy. We had amazing tix for the A’s/WSox on Sunday. Shit baseball but a pretty fun experience regardless.

[Sabo]

Sabo has been to a game at RingCenter. The White Sox actually have a kennel. I was going to take him to Guarantied Rate, but when we were there the kennel was closed for some reason. He had to guard our hotel room while I went to the game.

[Marksman]

TJ Eckleburg for king!

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@alex

that their side is the one that is supposed to be good at organizing and extolls the virtues of worker-operated decentralized power structures over traditional business construction.

Have they ever claimed to be “good” at these things?

Just looking at the power dynamics in the US I don’t think anyone is particularly good at it, especially when you take in to account all the propaganda against workers rights.

You may see the occasional labor victory with a union but meanwhile the rich are getting richer and the poor are working harder than ever to survive.

I know this is just a silly message board but the fact the majority of people don’t want to bother with a small online community that shares similar goals (all lean left to different extents) it doesn’t give me hope for organization on a larger scale.

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Be careful, you might get labeled a creep for bringing up something a poster talked about even though it’s a normal human behavior as you relate with people over time.

[alex]

I think some people claim that organizing is more effective than voting, running for office, or working to improve the system from the inside.

It’s true that objectively speaking the left in USA has failed at securing proper rights/benefits for workers. So yea like if people here on UP for instance were more interested in cooperation, this would be an appropriate venue to try to improve our existing strategies.

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Organizing includes all those things. I think what people object to is the only thing to do is vote harder.

I worked in a campaign the last presidential election. It’s hard to organize.

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And pointing out that the status quo sucks while also pointing out that people benefiting off the status quo should be doing more does not make people assholes.

[otatop]

@Thickcut

Be careful, you might get labeled a creep for bringing up something a poster talked about even though it’s a normal human behavior as you relate with people over time.

The bolded part is key.

Saying “Hey, how’s your dog you bring to baseball games that you’ve posted extensively about before doing?” would fall under normal human behavior as you relate with people over time.

Bringing up jobs people did years ago or a TR to a restaurant in completely unrelated conversations, just to get a personal dig in, would not fall under normal human behavior as you relate with people over time.

[Jalfrezi]

If someone claims to be one thing on UP but their recent posts elsewhere show that to be false, is it acceptable to cite them?

So for instance if someone makes arguments based on being a PhD in a related subject but says elsewhere they have no qualifications, or they claim to not be racist but their posts elsewhere show them being very racist. are those things that could be cited here or are we expected to play along with their Walter Mitty fantasies?

[otatop]

@Jalfrezi

If someone claims to be one thing on UP but their recent posts elsewhere show that to be false, is it acceptable to cite them?

How are you confirming the recent posts elsewhere are made by the same person?

Probably best to PM the mod team and see what they say before posting it in public.