Are all US citizens responsible for the Iraq war? I think yes. Which isn’t to say that I have the same responsibility as Dick Cheney.
I’d very much say no.
That’s fine, but I was just clarifying a paradox that some might see in my posting. If every citizen is responsible for a nation’s crimes (which I agree with), how could you single out individuals as guilty of a war crime? Some are more responsible than others. The people in power lying about the rationale for the Iraq war are a lot more culpable than those placidly accepting those lies. Or those who don’t accept it but don’t do enough to stop it. But everyone is culpable to a certain degree, in my view.
man i had this weird dream where all this keed shit got moved to the other Ukraine thread because this thread is for the actual war, crazy to have dreamt that.
eh gtfo of this thread with that please
edit @moderators please fix again, i swear this is the same exact discussion as a few days ago and same points and questions being asked
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Today’s discussion was similar but not exactly the same.
Either way it’s a good discussion to have but since it’s not directly related to ongoing Ukraine happenings it should take place in its own thread where it can breathe.
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What I don’t understand about the pro-Russia side of this argument is what was Ukraine and the west supposed to do? Full capitulation Meershimer style?
Like no one needs to be celebrating killing unwilling Russian conscripts but there aren’t even close to two equivalent sides here. Yet we still seem to have a few people posting acting like the culpability for all this is closer to even.
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Of course. As long as they aren’t people you care about, who cares if they’re genocided?
I’ve come to agree with John Mearsheimer’s position on Ukraine: that the US and the West precipitated the crisis in Ukraine by trying to extend NATO and EU expansion right up to Russia’s borders, including particularly sensitive states to Russia like Ukraine and Georgia. And that those actions by the West are what led to the Russian interventions in Georgia and Crimea.
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As for the first part no one is explicitly “pro-russian”. More like Russian symapthizers imo who are scared to actually say the words. As to the second part it is a complete strawman as I never said that.
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I’m not defending anything. I’m saying I don’t see how Russia benefits from this so if it happens I doubt that Russia is responsible. Same as the absurd “Russia blew up its own pipeline” or “Russia shelled the nuclear power plant it is occupying” narratives.
Ukraine can do as they like. I think the west shouldn’t have gotten involved at all. If you want to characterize that viewpoint as pro-Russian, well, I don’t think that’s accurate but whatever.
ok
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That’s fine. I strongly disagree. Ukraine toppling in weeks would have been a disaster for Europe imo. The morality of the sides in this are also clear to me. Ukraine hasn’t done anything but defend themselves and Russia hasn’t done anything but invade, without provocation, a sovereign nation with the intent to kill and dominate them. As a person I should stand against that whether it is Russia, the US or any other country.
Just let Russia have what they want with zero pushback seems like awful strategy.
The West had had very limited consequence for interfering so it’s also hard for me to understand how anyone couldn’t think they shouldn’t have. What energy prices are up? A small price to pay compared to the possibilities of letting an aging Putin run wild through Europe unfettered.
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Here’s how I see it.
What Russia/Putin has done is pretty monstrous. (This does not mean all Russians are monsters.) In my opinion, providing defensive arms to Ukraine is probably a good thing at this point. However, this will result in a long, bloody war with a ton of destroyed infrastructure and ruined lives, along with the nonzero chance that nukes get deployed at some point, leading to WW3. Still, I am like 51/49 that helping Ukraine defend themselves is the right thing to do.
Others disagree, and point out that the West’s actions leading up to this conflict may have escalated tensions, and point out that contributing to the defense of Ukraine, and thus increasing the duration and deadliness of the war, might be worse than the alternative. This seems like a fair point and it is frustrating to see it shouted down. Adding to it other factors like the dark history of Western involvement in foreign affairs, the power of western propaganda to shape the story that we consume, and the power of the American military industrial complex to shape decision-making, yea it seems fair to discuss things rather than just cheering on Ukraine and Western military aid unthinkingly.
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Russian conscripts have the following choices:
- Surrender ASAP
- Run away
- Be in the range of enemy fire and get smoked.
Maybe when more men from the cities start coming home in trash bags the population will turn against the war and Putin.
But that’s assuming that the war was inevitable. If the US didn’t show any interest in or support Ukraine in any way, I think it’s very possible that the war never happens. Ukraine might have just peacefully became a Russian-aligned country like Belarus.
here you go:
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I pretty much agree with all that.
That being said just because almost all western meddling has been bad historically doesn’t mean meddling here is bad. With zero western support Ukraine falls months ago and then where are we?
We all think it’s highly likely Russia never takes control of Ukraine now right? The knock on effects of that result are hugely positive for most of the world.
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I know you’re trolling because even you don’t believe your last sentence.
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I’m not knowlegdgeable enough to discuss that with you tbh and I will admit that. My limited viewpoint is that if Putin wanted to reunite the USSR then US actions mattered very little and whether Ukraine was a satelite nation of Russia like Belarus or an official part matters almost none.
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