ok
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That’s fine. I strongly disagree. Ukraine toppling in weeks would have been a disaster for Europe imo. The morality of the sides in this are also clear to me. Ukraine hasn’t done anything but defend themselves and Russia hasn’t done anything but invade, without provocation, a sovereign nation with the intent to kill and dominate them. As a person I should stand against that whether it is Russia, the US or any other country.
Just let Russia have what they want with zero pushback seems like awful strategy.
The West had had very limited consequence for interfering so it’s also hard for me to understand how anyone couldn’t think they shouldn’t have. What energy prices are up? A small price to pay compared to the possibilities of letting an aging Putin run wild through Europe unfettered.
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Here’s how I see it.
What Russia/Putin has done is pretty monstrous. (This does not mean all Russians are monsters.) In my opinion, providing defensive arms to Ukraine is probably a good thing at this point. However, this will result in a long, bloody war with a ton of destroyed infrastructure and ruined lives, along with the nonzero chance that nukes get deployed at some point, leading to WW3. Still, I am like 51/49 that helping Ukraine defend themselves is the right thing to do.
Others disagree, and point out that the West’s actions leading up to this conflict may have escalated tensions, and point out that contributing to the defense of Ukraine, and thus increasing the duration and deadliness of the war, might be worse than the alternative. This seems like a fair point and it is frustrating to see it shouted down. Adding to it other factors like the dark history of Western involvement in foreign affairs, the power of western propaganda to shape the story that we consume, and the power of the American military industrial complex to shape decision-making, yea it seems fair to discuss things rather than just cheering on Ukraine and Western military aid unthinkingly.
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Russian conscripts have the following choices:
- Surrender ASAP
- Run away
- Be in the range of enemy fire and get smoked.
Maybe when more men from the cities start coming home in trash bags the population will turn against the war and Putin.
But that’s assuming that the war was inevitable. If the US didn’t show any interest in or support Ukraine in any way, I think it’s very possible that the war never happens. Ukraine might have just peacefully became a Russian-aligned country like Belarus.
here you go:
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I pretty much agree with all that.
That being said just because almost all western meddling has been bad historically doesn’t mean meddling here is bad. With zero western support Ukraine falls months ago and then where are we?
We all think it’s highly likely Russia never takes control of Ukraine now right? The knock on effects of that result are hugely positive for most of the world.
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I know you’re trolling because even you don’t believe your last sentence.
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I’m not knowlegdgeable enough to discuss that with you tbh and I will admit that. My limited viewpoint is that if Putin wanted to reunite the USSR then US actions mattered very little and whether Ukraine was a satelite nation of Russia like Belarus or an official part matters almost none.
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That’s kinda the question, right? Is what is going on right now, the destruction of vast swaths of a country and the deaths of tens of thousands of people, many innocent, a better outcome than if we hadn’t helped? Idk, it definitely isn’t a slam dunk yes
Do you think Putin stops at Ukraine? (Not a rhetorical question I legit don’t know)
There’s really nowhere else to go after Russia takes what they want of Ukraine, assuming they win. If they can take Odessa they’ll probably annex Transnistria. But literally everywhere else they can go in Europe is already in NATO and it’d trigger a direct war with the US.
Idk, probably not? Feels like there’s a strong bayesian inference to be made now that we know he has already invaded Ukraine. Whether that was as apparent before, idk
But who would be next?
Aren’t there a ton of former USSR nations not in NATO? The vast majority of them right?
Although googling it tells me some, like Croatia, became part of NATO in the 2000s so it isn’t all.
That’s a decision for the Ukranians to make, no? They are obviously under no obligation to use the weapons we provide to defend themselves.
The other aspect is that in a world where we just let Russia have Ukraine isn’t it a ticking time bomb anyways? Eventually revolution or similar will come. It seems like kicking the can down the road to me based on the response from the people who live there.
Not in Europe. You’ve got the little ones in the Caucuses and then your various stans in central Asia.
I think you’re mixing up former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact countries. Warsaw Pact countries were Poland, Romania, Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria. Yugoslavia was non-aligned. All of the former Warsaw Pact countries are now in NATO. Three of the soviet republics are now in NATO, the Baltic countries. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania.
Finland, Sweden, or Norway
There’s the rest of Moldova, of course. And do Georgia and Tajikistan count even less than Ukraine?
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As in aren’t in NATO that were formerly USSR? None of these countries were in the USSR and Norway is already in NATO?