Ukraine, Russia, and the West

I agree it just feels like putting off the inevitable. Only the attack on NATO will come on Putin’s terms when he’s strong again and has upgraded his military.

But the other very convincing-sounding reason I’ve read - is that everything changes if the war becomes Russia vs. NATO. Suddenly the Russian military has a true hated enemy to fight, the Belarusians probably don’t have as much trouble motivating their military, the Russian generals and the general public can rally around fighting NATO. Right now the military is supposedly completely demoralized fighting their brothers.

The fear is that Russian generals may be pushed into being on board with some kind of nukes if they are under attack from NATO, whereas if it’s just Ukraine, it will be very very hard for Putin to launch nukes even if he wants to. At least that’s some speculation I read by some experts.

I guess the ideal situation is for NATO just to keep doing what it’s doing and hope the Russian army can’t take Kyiv and most of Ukraine, and Russia comes to the bargaining table to accept basically a defeat. But they still get Crimea probably and maybe more territory. At that point it will become what’s acceptable to the Ukrainian people and what they’re willing to keep fighting for.

I could draw up that list in 15 minutes. Too bad they don’t get twitter in Russia anymore.

https://twitter.com/notlukeharris/status/1500128894736683016

https://twitter.com/IPDog/status/1500250002769453056

https://twitter.com/lea_bradford/status/1500252645579112451

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500246730104791040

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500248010332282882

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500250232143204354

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1500265096299397122

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Our generation’s Vietnam.

Have iodine prices skyrocketed on Scamazon marketplace yet or is that coming next week?

Someone PM me to excise the nonsense in this thread and I’ll do it tomorrow. Out and about right now.

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https://twitter.com/AndreasShrugged/status/1499347483360731136

Holy shit this article is good - published on Feb 7th - from one of the only ex-Russian generals to give an honest assessment.

In Russia’s expert community recently a sufficiently powerful opinion has taken root that it won’t even be necessary to put troops on Ukraine’s territory since the armed forces of that country are in a pathetic state.

Some pundits note that Russia’s powerful fire strike will destroy practically all surveillance and communications systems, artillery and tank formations. Moreover, a number of experts have concluded that even one crushing Russian strike will to be sufficient to finish such a war.

Like a cherry on top different analysts point to the fact that no one in Ukraine will defend the “Kiev regime.”

If this is what the expert community was telling themselves - so much else of the lack of preparation makes sense.

In a word, a liberation crusade in 2022 in the form and likeness of 1939 won’t work in any way.1 In this instance the words of Soviet literature classic Arkadiy Gaydar are true as never before: “It’s obvious that now we won’t have an easy battle, but a hard campaign.”

Now about “Russia’s powerful fire strike,” by which “practically all surveillance and communications systems, artillery and tank formations of the VSU2” will supposedly be destroyed.

Only in this single expression it’s apparent that only political workers could say such a thing. For reference: in the course of hypothetical military actions on the scale of a theater of military operations [TVD] strikes on priority targets and mass fire strikes are delivered. We note in the course of operational-strategic planning the adjectives “powerful” (and also “medium,” “weak,” etc.) aren’t used.

To this it’s certainly necessary to add that supplies of prospective and highly-accurate weapons in the VS RF5 don’t bear any kind of unlimited character. “Tsirkon” hypersonic missiles still aren’t in the armory. And the quantity of “Kalibrs” (sea-based cruise missiles), “Kinzhals,” Kh-101 (air-launched cruise missiles) and missiles for “Iskanders” in the very best case number in the hundreds (dozens in the case of “Kinzhals”). This arsenal is completely insufficient to wipe a state on the scale of France with a population of more than 40 million from the face of the earth. And Ukraine is characterized by exactly these parameters.

No hypersonic missiles yet. Also this isn’t the first place I’ve heard that they only have hundreds of the other missiles.

Now as concerns assertions that western countries won’t send a single soldier to die for Ukraine.

We have to note that most likely this will be the case. However this hardly excludes in the event of a Russian invasion massive assistance to the VSU from the collective West with the most varied types of arms and military equipment and large volume supplies of all kinds of materiel. In this regard the West has already exhibited an unprecedented consolidated position, which, it seems, was not expected in Moscow.

One shouldn’t doubt that some reincarnated lend-lease in the form and likeness of the Second World War from the USA and countries of the North Atlantic alliance will begin. Even the flow of volunteers from the West of which there could be very many can’t be excluded.

CONCLUSIONS

Generally, there won’t be any kind of Ukrainian blitzkrieg. Utterances by some experts of the type “The Russian Army will destroy the greater part of VSU sub-units11 in 30-40 minutes,” “Russia is capable of destroying Ukraine in 10 minutes in a full-scale war,” “Russia will destroy Ukraine in eight minutes” don’t have a serious basis.

And finally, most important. Armed conflict with Ukraine now fundamentally doesn’t meet Russia’s national interests. Therefore it’s best for some overexcited Russian experts to forget their hat-tossing fantasies. And, with the aim of preventing further reputational damage, never again to recall them.

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Mearsheimer’s analysis is problematic for a few reasons (many touched on already itt), but defending his blurb for an antizionist’s book isn’t one of them, nor is Atzmon a fringe deplorable.

My problem with it is it amounts to not much more than apologia for imperialism. It’s not profound, it’s not even new. It’s the law of the fish with a hat on it. It elevates it’s essential moral bankruptcy by framing it as ‘realism’. To the extent it’s true it’s trivially true (bullies keep bullying? Such insight!), it’s prescription end up being entirely authoritarian. It’s rejection of a moral dimension to human relations is pure uncut fascism.

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https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1500167936203534339

Maybe Putin really does just want the land bridge to the breakaway Moldovan sector and that’s what this all about.

https://twitter.com/anatoly/status/1499644670925840391

I really can’t see the Ukrainians accepting this under any conditions. If they’re weak enough to have to accept this, Putin might as well just take the whole country. They will fight not to be landlocked.

I don’t buy this one. They’d still be fighting their brothers, they’d also have no air support which would have to scare them shitless. Seems like not wanting to die for no good reason in Ukraine doesn’t change regardless of if nato keeps the sky clear of Russian interference.

Also, Russia doesn’t seem to have the logistics to properly fight a war in Ukraine. Forget men and motivation or whatever, but broadening a war when your logistics are overwhelmed by a force nowhere near the total size and might of NATO seems really dumb… assuming rational actors of course

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https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/status/1500057738952556546?s=21

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I feel like you might be discounting the morale part. The Russians hate NATO. They’d love to shoot down a US or Polish fighter. It would be a huge propaganda win with people back home.

But really none of us knows. I’m just listening to self-proclaimed experts and trying to figure out who sounds like they make the most sense. I’m just telling Riverman what the argument is. It sounds convincing to me on some levels but nothing conclusive.

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Notice who retweeted.

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https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500306448626167809

Shit just got real. Adidas - your move.

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I dont care how motivated the guys in your local YMCA are to play vs the Golden State Warriors of whatever, they’re simply way overmatched and no amount of effort nor WIM will help.

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Yeah but this isn’t the Golden State Warriors vs. YMCA. This is overrated USC vs. plucky Appalachian State.

Also I was only talking about the morale boost the Russian troops and especially the PR machine back home would get if their opponent switched from Ukraine to NATO.

https://twitter.com/draiochta14/status/1498373077129994251

Yes Mike, apparently Americans do care about Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/Politically_Int/status/1500275092579753987

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https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1500303818457817088

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https://twitter.com/tkatz56/status/1500313690838650884

https://twitter.com/KennethEBoyd1/status/1500316411180240897

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https://twitter.com/Politically_Int/status/1500275092579753987

It’s always projection. Even when it comes to their own ignorance.