Ukraine, Russia, and the West

You do speak almost constantly in definitives across virtually every thread.

Edit: just to be clear, debate is about uncertainties, very little in life is black/white. THere are always many possibilies when discussing new events that are unfolding.

4 Likes

I don’t think any country should militarily try to force regime change, and obviously the US has been unequivocally terrible on that.

But there’s a difference between wanting to effect regime change to a democracy where people can choose their own path, vs. wanting to effect regime change to a vassal-state autocracy where people are screwed for decades. Putin wants the latter in Ukraine, by any means necessary.

It is morally correct to push for democracies w/o military force. It is evil to push for what Putin wants in Ukraine - with our w/o military force.

3 Likes

Yeah. I think it’s all about corruption myself. Ukraine could be a mormon cult for all Putin cares as long as Russia can plunder it.

2 Likes

Is this the promise that never even made it to the agreement and which Gorbachev literally stated was regarding the East German settlement specifically? That promise?

If you don’t want nearby countries to fly to the arms of your enemies, don’t intimidate and frighten them into doing so.

Finland have famously resisted joining Nato. Seems like that idea would be quite popular these days. Why is that do you think? American pressure?

No, no, no. The buffer states were in between – the ones FDR accepted at Yalta.

I reiterate that I’m all for supporting Ukrainians, maybe even arming them, now that the invasion has occurred. But how we got to this spot is a different question.

maybe Russia should have instead spent 30 years grappling with rising inequality, smothering of democratic and social institutions in their infacy, and the return of Siloviki as the dominant branch of government???

nah, culture wars against “the west” have always tasted much more satisfying to the masses.

I think ideology is a much more important influence in human affairs than money. For one, ideology can be used to rally millions for a common cause, while the benefits of corruption are fairly limited.

1 Like

Yeah certainly a strong possibility. I think in general for Putin, money = power. Like ability to skim huge amounts off the top of whatever is more about being able to do it than buying a 5th superyacht. He’d be smug even if Ukraine was having fair elections if there was still corruption, but that may/is probably oxymoronic or rather an intellectual exercise with no bearings in reality.

Air raid sirens again.

Look at a map and generate some other thing to argue about. The ZOMG NATO AT THE BORDER has literally always been true, it got more true with Poland, it got more true in 2004. Your statement that NATO on the board would make for a cuban missile crisis every month is the dilettante’s I read an article pov here.

And again, I give zero shits about if that makes Russia mad. Again, they only are mad about NATO because it makes it harder for them to subjugate those people.

Oh no, this will really anger Putin. He might even invade Ukraine!

3 Likes

https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1498394914362642433?s=21

:eyes:

2 Likes

Yes he does a bit reckless stuff from time to time, but also features some lighter content:

From everything I’ve seen so far, Ukrainians seem like the party version of Russians. All the drinking and crazy outfits and music, but w/o the dourness.

never had heard of him before, but he’s big MAD at this… hilariously going on about “was i Russian state affiliated media when i did this…” tangents, meanwhile everyone with a brain is replying that you become Russian state affiliated media when you took that job as russian state affiliated media…

Russians go hardddddd too though. At least the young people.

Right - but in a less whimsical way.

In the video I posted they’re in Belarus.

1 Like

Those turkish drones ($7m each), seem pretty simple but effective. Sitting ducks vs good radar, but I guess Russia doesn’t have fully effective countermeasures.

Sill, I don’t believe anything about Ukrainian air power if they can’t stop a 15 mile long convoy headed to Kiev.

1 Like

Maybe if/when Putin is removed the whimsy will return!

1 Like