Trans Issues In Sports/Society

Politics & News
1123

People debating these things don’t even understand the basics of sex and gender. They may understand the propaganda and lies now used in discourse and industries, particularly those brought into horrifying prominence thanks to abusive pedophiles like John Money still being celebrated as pioneers of our understanding of gender and sex.

But John Money was instead ignoring the lived reality of his subjects when his experiments attempted to forcibly convert them to a different gender based on his interpretations of their anatomy instead of listening to them when they said THIS. IS. NOT. WORKING.

Instead of listening to a person who knew they were a girl, he said well that looks like a penis so…

Instead of listening to a boy that knew they were not a girl, he said well you DON’T have a penis so…

His most famous victims were two twin boys, one of whom experienced a botched circumcision. Money gave the kid genital surgery and said raise them as a girl and it will stick. He refused to listen when the twins said this was traumatizing them. He instead published decades of research insisting this sort of thing is THAT malleable and it’s better to enforce these standards than listen to the actual person telling you what their body knows beyond your ability to perceive about them.

He said it was working and his subjects were thriving. Lies. Lies lies lies. And yet this is the science even well intentioned allies are referencing as the foundational research when they think they are experts on the history of the field.

The very definition of “trans” itself is so abstract as to be an umbrella that includes all kinds of cisgender, intersex, and non binary people. That is why when someone says they are ONLY debating trans rights, they are in fact debating everyone’s rights. There is no clear way to make a distinction between who is and is not trans, or what is and is not a transgender experience or medical obstacle.

The experiences and medical obstacles are often identical or have so common an overlap as to be indistinguishable until you talk to the person to understand the meaningful individual distinctions for that person. Even the seemingly objective criteria like chromosomes and phenotype turn out to be laughably unreliable predictors.

The shit really is that diverse in the natural world. It’s simple bigotry to insist on a binary distinction.

I made this video interviewing my friend who experienced a medical assault from their doctor performing an invasive non-consensual genital exam to “prove” they weren’t really a boy. The stuff about Last Week Tonight and Jon Stewart is fun too I think.

I also made a few videos about what it’s like for me and why I tend to not engage in conversations that are starting from where a lot of people are starting from–including well intentioned allies.

And here’s one of my fave commenters who has been making videos since the beginning of YouTube!!! I love her.

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1124

I agree with you - it’s a very hard thing to discuss, but at the same time needs to be discussed.

I think the biggest thing people could do is take a moment before expressing their opinion on something this difficult. This is especially true when you are not personally involved at all in the situation (and even more so when the person you are discussing it with is). It’s more than ok in spots like this to just listen to the conversation and/or ask legitimate questions.

Instead, we see, as here, people just automatically double down on their pre-existing positions when challenged (or even worse attack the person who challenges them/tell the other person to shut-up) rather than bother to re-evaluate.

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1125

I’m not saying it can’t be discussed or that it should be off limits. What I’m saying is that the people I am referring to are either using this as an intellectual exercise or falling for right wing propaganda or both. Both are gross to varying degrees. Several high volume posters talked about how trans women shouldn’t be allowed to compete in college sports. One went as far as to call them “trans dudes”. That isn’t a debate or discussion. It’s an attack on trans people and it shows a shocking level of ignorance on the issue.

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For a lot of people who are or are simply perceived as trans, trying to talk to people about this stuff is just like any sincere poster from Unstuck Politics trying to talk to a recently deconverted conservative or, perhaps more fitting, a recently deconverted libertarian.

That person is absolutely coming from a good place, but they are also working through an enormous amount of internalized bullshit. Not everyone will be able to engage with where that person is coming from, even if they applaud the direction they’re going and will want to connect with them LATER in their journey.

It’s not even just about whether a person is triggered, though that’s an inescapable part of everyone’s limits. There’s also just the practical question of how to spend limited time and resources. A lot of conversations are possible once you cultivate spaces that are not rehashing the same long-since debunked misconceptions about sex and gender that remain popular in virtually all online and real-world spaces.

I sometimes come back to this viral article when I am attempting to speak from a good place to someone outside my circle of privilege and they either have a negative response or don’t want to talk to me at all.

I need to practice as much grace for why that’s not the appropriate time and person for me to have that conversation as much as I need others to show themselves grace when they want to discuss trans rights and I tell them no thanks or GTFO plz. Some people are coming from a place that is well intentioned but is either still functionally dangerous or at minimum demands an inappropriate amount of emotional labor from the oppressed person just to have that conversation.

At that point, it’s not the trans person being supported. It’s the recovering bigot. That’s the time to talk reach out to appropriate resources that may not include the people you most want to help at that moment. We’re all responsible for working through whichever forms of prejudice and bigotry still come from us despite our best intentions. Progress, not perfection, you know?

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1128

He’s in a cult because he thinks… I’m not a worthless person?

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I know right it’s fucking wild.

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Even before they got cancer believe it or not.

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Sherlockholmescat.jpg

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Not disagreeing with you, but I want to add in case you’re not aware that this describes like half of what became this forum. And the way that many of them got turned away from their right-wing libertarian phase into Bernie Sanders style leftists was with a beatdown of facts and logic over the course of several years, including repeated demonstrations of how they were supporting racist positions that eventually even they themselves couldn’t deny.

My point is that engagement works, even if it’s a long and slow process.

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This is an entirely made up debate by the right to harm trans people.

The idea you can include or exclude a person in any sport based on some essentialist sex or gender criteria is predicated on the scientifically and anthropologically debunked idea either are binaries or that some definition including “essential criteria” can or ever will be developed.

The only criteria that should be required for a persons inclusion in a sport is their desire to be included.

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1134

You think Shaun Deeb should be playing ladies’ poker events?

1135

I have no desire to get into a debate on any of this.

Cheers

1136

I mean the debate is made up by the right to harm trans people, because there is no ‘issue’ of trans in sports. But your post makes no sense, as every single sporting event excludes people based on gender. All of them.

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1137

I just found this thread and would love to learn more on how to stick up for trans rights. However, I do run into a brick wall when talking about sports…

I understand how important it is to feel a sense of belonging and competitive sports is an excellent vehicle for this. But I get stumped when trying to justify what I believe (incorrectly?) is an inherent unfairness to cis woman. So perhaps someone can educate me…

Is it not a scientific fact that biological men after reaching puberty are on average bigger and stronger than biological women?

Are biological women not at a disadvantage when competing against trans women?

Is it fair that a biological woman miss the cut on a team because a trans woman beat her out?

You can flame me for what might seem like ignorant questions (and I fully expect as much from my past experiences on this forum). But I think they are legit questions and if you can’t explain them to me who fully wants to be on the side of trans people, then there’s no hope in pursuading others who make no effort to understand the unfair treatment of trans people

Thanking serious responses in advance

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1138

:roll_eyes: What is a “biological” woman?

You could try, perhaps, reading the thread first and learning something rather than expecting special treatment focused on you. Your questions are not new, special, or unaddressed.

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1139

Well the entire history of women’s sports is based on that distinction.

I’ll bet!

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The people taking the anti-trans stance on sports sound awfully familiar to certain sports fans of the 50s and 60s regarding black people in sports. I am not saying that to rip those people to shreds but to hopefully raise some awareness regarding how ignorant and bigoted you come across.

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1141

This policy would instantly ruin one of the only well paying pro women’s sports, tennis. The thousand ranked guy can win two million dollars by saying he’s a woman and play in the us open? Some asshole would do it.

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1142

not sure who those people are, but i think those who join the conversation without any idea of how competitive sports operate are doing a disservice to their side. Posts like the one clovis posted are harmful.

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