I’d like to apologize for my behavior itt yesterday. it didn’t feel good. I want the best outcomes for all earthlings
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If black posters couldnt post about racism on UP without it turning into a toxic dumpster fire, would you think that was an issue? Or would you brush it off because we are still better than most?
I would think it was an issue. I would not brush it off. If it is better than most I would state that if people were suggesting otherwise.
This poster signed up with a name which begins “Angry” so I was honestly never that confused about where the hostility was coming from.
Well, before I answer this… I decided to go and see what actual trans people think about this issue, so I headed over to Transgender Pulse. I found a couple threads on Lia Thomas. Here’s the OP of the first one:
So…recently, an old friend of mine made an anti-trans facebook post about Lia Thomas, essentially saying that she has an unfair advantage and should be disqualified from the Women’s Swimming team.
Now…I’m not out as trans on facebook yet, and he has no idea that I’m a girl. I wanted to ignore so as to not perhaps accidentally out myself, but I couldn’t stop myself lol. I told him posts like that were just propaganda created by bigots who have no idea what they’re talking about, and that if Lia Thomas should be disqualified from competing against other women, then ALL women with a height advantage should be disqualified from competing against other women lol.
…Am I wrong?
Here’s the first reply:
In my view I think it is not so much what you say but how you say it. Confrontation is only likely to raise tempers and barriers so making things worse, not better. I feel it is more about education not confrontation. Many times steps forward have been reversed many years by people pushing too hard for change as they, intentionally or otherwise, finally get peoples backs up and destroy good will.
And I was like that’s weird, I thought we were supposed to scream incoherently at people about being transphobes. But then things got still stranger:
I am on the fence here. I think athletes who took (take) puberty blockers so that they never were fully male athletes should be allowed to compete as girls/women in sports. But in Lea’s case, from what I understand, she went fully through male puberty and muscle development. Does that give her an unfair advantage? I don’t really know. At least she isn’t winning everything and there are ciswomen who are better than she is.
I think this is a real debate, her rights verses her competition’s rights.
Wait, is this sort of talk ALLOWED? Who is moderating this forum? Matters got even worse in the second thread I read:
I will likely be in the minority, but this in-your face example by Lia Thomas is like having an NFL defensive lineman playing on a pee wee football team. With only one year of hormone replacement therapy, the muscle mass will still be more male. It is not like Thomas suddenly took up swimming and is competing on a level playing ground. This type of in-your-face stuff will bring more bad attention and ill-will towards all of us who are transgender. I could see it if Thomas had been on a puberty blockade regimen and then given HRT, but to compete like this will cause further legislation that will create more hurdles than it is worth.
Dude, they’re DOING TRANSPHOBIA! Quick, swing over there like Batman and explain to them that their threads are “toxic dumpster fires” and that they are creating an unsafe environment for trans people.
To return to your post, when people tell me to check my privilege or suggest that I might be upsetting people or whatever, I do stop and think it through. But my conclusion doesn’t have to be “I’d better change my behaviour”, I am actually allowed to think “no, I think I’m being reasonable here”. There exist some very unreasonable people on the planet and unless I sometimes do that, I will end up being held hostage by their whims. I think especially on a politics forum, the purpose of which is to discuss touchy subjects, people getting upset is not necessarily a sign that the discussion has to be shut down. Nobody is forced to read threads; the ignore button is right there.
To get out in front of an anticipated response to the quotes I posted, I understand that it’s different for things to be discussed and opinions to be given on a trans forum rather than when it’s a thread full of white bros. But it’s at most just a little on-the-nose. What I don’t accept is that it justifies the sort of histrionic and offensive bullshit you’re subjecting everyone to ITT. I’ve had this sort of argument with you before I think, and you still seem oblivious to how arrogant you’re being when you swing in and accuse everyone else of being a less morally developed human being than you. It’s really stunning.
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This post is pathological.
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Using this as a jumping off point. Because it’s much more interesting to discuss why Chris would spend so much time and effort in self justification and self protection just to avoid any hit to progressive self image, rather than to actually respond to those fairly bizarre efforts.
Accusing someone of bad behaviour, or requesting them to stop that bad behaviour does not necessarily mean that if the accusation is valid that they are a irrideemable and terrible person.
Like. “I am a good person”. And “I’ve just done something sexist/transphobic/racist”
are two statements that we should be comfortable coexisting in our self image. You dont have to choose.
Once we all recognize this we get much better at responding to debates like this.
When my wife and I were first dating, she would regularly challenge me on sexism and racism. Mostly casual stuff, or of being tolerant or friends with people who were sexist/racist. I would always got defensive with some version of “I’m not a bad person.” “X is not a bad person”.
Fortunately she then called me out on that as well.
In regards to the idea that I’m being overly aggressive and not taking the time to explain. I’d challenge anyone (not chris) to filter the thread on just my posts (start at the top of the thread and click the frequent poster icon) and work through them.
The best info is in the top half, partly because the first run of posts and posters were more considered than the second half.
At least the 3rd time you’ve used Progresso self image lol lose that phrase from your lexicon. Doesn’t mean shit, and you’re totally wrong.
I will. Between me being in the middle of moving and having been in quarantine until 10h ago I haven‘t had the time to write the detailed reply your question deserves. I will get to it soon.
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Thanks Rivaldo. Glad you took the time away to reflect on your behaviour.
Oh. Nm
And for anyone who missed the post itt that got banned. He was talking about trans people changing their genitals for social media likes.
But its “histrionic” to tell this guy to fuck off.
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Fair enough. I appreciate you taking the time to respond
So my dad and I are still having a conversation about this. First, he’s old, so some of the more meme-ish GOP talking points are in his wheelhouse. I am gently trying to address those with him. I’ve succeeded in getting him to use Lia’s proper pronouns (at least with me) so that’s a good start. He is a lifelong democrat, but from the south, so tends a bit more conservative on social issues…especially “new” ones to him, like trans rights. It’s mostly just lack of knowledge, not hate.
As for the “inside swimming” stuff, he says that the NCAA and USA-S organizations often butt heads (mostly over less significant rule changes, but whatever), and he thinks the NCAA was taken off guard by USA-S’s decision and the NCAA decision to let her swim was a knee-jerk reaction. He says the swimming world is “troubled by this,” but I didn’t have a chance to ask him to elaborate on that. Probably the same arguments going on ITT, tbh.
Personally, I say let her swim. Politically, I think the 3-year rule might be an acceptable compromise (for lack of a better term), but I’m not sure of the true nuance of the USA-S rule.
Anyway, he wants to continue our conversation so I will update with more details if necessary.
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Thanks SD. Interesting to get some insight from someone who is involved in the swimming world
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Semi-related question. How overblown is the narrative of Lia going from “average” to elite? She was 6th as a freshman in the 1k, so is it unexpected that by a senior she’d be a champion (even if she never transitioned). No idea how much swimmers improve from 18-22 (e.g. Ledecky was dominating at 16 and there were quite a few Olympic medalists under 18).
Michael Phelps isn’t exactly a representative sample, but he got quite a bit faster from 19 to 23. I would expect that most male swimmers peak in the 22-24 range, not 19.
It’s really hard to say. Wookie is right about when men peak. I think women peak a little earlier. But obviously every individual is different. Then there are always the random
burst out of nowhere" stories…those happen in swimming, too, and I have no idea why.
Honestly, I wouldn’t even call Lia winning one NCAA event at one meet “elite.”
This is elite, and honestly, should just obliterate all these arguments:
On Thursday night, the five-time Olympic gold medalist and freshman at Stanford lowered her U.S. record in the 500-yard freestyle in an unreal time of 4:25.15 at the Pac-12 Championships — more than 10 seconds faster than the second-place finisher.
For the record, Lia’s time was 4:33.24. So all those people she beat by 13 seconds? Katie Ledecky would have beaten them by 21. Ban her! She ruined the integrity of the sport!
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It really depends on perspective. Most of the women swimming in that meet would have been the best swimmers their high schools had ever seen.
Ledecky is a freak, though, no doubt. Absolutely unhuman.
Absolutely. But of course people are screaming about how she is dominating the sport and it’s not fair, etc…which is not true at all. They use the term “elite” to further that narrative.
If we want to talk about real dominance, how about looking at what another competitor did at the same meet…
“Junior Kate Douglass left with eight national titles, and broke three American records in three different strokes, an astonishing and never-before-seen feat.”
Also, this is from a source that clearly thinks Lia had an unfair advantage, so there is a bit of spin, but it at least quantifies pre transition and post transition. Lia was slower post transition, and I would think that the impact of the transition was probably even more dramatic (b/c I assume that Lia had probably not yet reached her peak times)
*In the 500 freestyle, Thomas’ time of 4:33.24 from her [NCAA-title swim] Thomas’ difference from her personal best with the Penn men’s program was just 6%, as opposed to the typical 10% to 11% difference generally seen between men and women.
- Thomas’ best time in the 200 freestyle ended up being her 1:41.93 mark from the Zippy Invitational in December. That effort ultimately ended up 3.76% slower than her best time before her transition. Again, that time was between 7% and 8% faster than the typical separation between men and women.
- When Thomas won the 200 freestyle at the Ivy League Champs in 1:43.12, she was even with runnerup Samantha Shelton at the midway point, but crushed the Harvard swimmer over the last 100, highlighted by a 25.04 split for the last 50 yards. The closing split of Thomas was faster than the finishing laps of Missy Franklin in her American-record performance, and the best closing effort of the likes of Katie Ledecky , Mallory Comerford and Siobhan Haughey , among others.
- In the 100 freestyle, Thomas’ best time prior to her transition was 47.15. At the NCAA Championships, she posted a prelims time in the event of 47.37. That time reflects minimal mitigation.
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This is actually the most relevant stat to demonstrate unfairness or whatever.
I was a 47 100 freestyler in college in the 90s and it was just fast enough to not get on a b relay at a division 2 school. Like close to the slowest on my team.
Lia was not a sprinter, not even close. You can see her times progressions here. Lia Thomas | Swimcloud
She was a horrible sprinter, a middling middle distance swimmer, and a pretty great distance freestyle as a man.
And she is elite at all 3 as a woman. Yes, finalling at ncaa is elite.
Go swim a 500 and check your time if you don’t agree. In fact go swim a 50 and compare the pace.
And again, I support Lia and think she’s a bad ass.
The ioc has/had different rules based on distances regarding gender nonconforming athletes. Maybe the ncaa should too.