And IS my cat actually a dog because it has four legs? Some of the most puzzling questions of our time.
Right and this isnât a very complex issue imo. I mean itâs sports at the end of the day. Sacrificing inclusiveness over a sports outcome doesnât make a lot of sense to me. Think about it from the opposite perspective. If she was not allowed to swim we can both agree that would be harmful right? Both to her and to the transgender community as a whole?
Itâs a ridiculous discussion where youâre like, ok, letâs game it out and come up with solutions off the top of our head, about something we are very ignorant of, that does not affect us. Thatâs not a problem in most topics here, and it seems to be what this forum is for, but itâs a bit like bullying when youâre doing it on this kind of topic while claiming to be the rational ones standing up to abuse from overemotional people, failing to recognize the power gap or any other context
1 Like
Nice attempt at bullying. Did you forget @LouisCyphre was saying it proves someone believes trans women arenât women if theyâve never met one they wanted to fuck?
Youâre not the only one who is doing this, but itâs not like people arenât reading the thread, reading the links and all of the information posted. Even if someone starts out very ignorant, if they read evertyhing that is posted and the links (and stuff those links refer to), theyâre sure not going to be an expert, but they are not exactly âignorantâ either.
But fine, letâs say they still are. If ignorance is a problem, how do you propose one attempts to overcome this? We could just avoid the topic completely and stay just as ignorant or we could have this type of discussion, people could read it and the various articles people post, and maybe become a little less ignorant.
1 Like
So close and yet so far from the point
This isnât a thread of people showing their ignorance. This is a thread of people doing that WHILE saying âthese rules I just thought of is how it should be. And you reacting to that is going to entrench my beliefs, because it is your responsibility to calmy educate me about trivially easy things to look upâ
2 Likes
If your reaction is âwhoa, where is this hostility coming fromâ then you should reflect on whether you were being obnoxious
2 Likes
There is no way to get this out of what he wrote:
Iâm just being petty here really. But I do kind of think itâs symptomatic of wanting to read everything in the most hostile light possible.
No, thatâs where your wrong. There has been a lot of info referenced in this thread, so everything trivially easy to look up has pretty much been laid out. If you think something is missing, just let me know what it is and Iâll be happy to go look that up too.
So people have read this stuff and nevertheless have a different viewpoint.
So, the response is some combination of thoughtful exchange, a bunch of âfuck you, transphobeâ, and plain nonsensical stuff (like your characterization of Louisâ post). Frankly, thatâs all pretty standard for internet discussions.
Or⌠just maybeâŚ
Like we are hundreds of posts in. You are still tone policing a thread while walking past transphobia.
But god forbid you self examine a single fucking thing about your progressive self identity. Nope.
You consider yourself a trans ally. Right? Iâm telling you trans people are reading this thread and that your posts, and others like them, make them feel shitty. What are you going to do with that information?
The answer of course is fuck all, youâre going to do fuck all. Just like youâve done with the rest of the points. You are really not the ally you think you are.
Holy false dichotomy batman.
So itâs either.
A) Have a thread full of ignorance, Republican talking points, outright transphobia, and whining about how the real bigots are the reverse transphobes.
Or
B) we cant learn about trans issues at all.
Right?
No, thatâs wrong. Very wrong. At least in my opinion, others may think otherwise.
No. No.
Thatâs not what I said.
Can you explain the point of your question?
The problem with giving an inch on issues like these* is that there will always be exceptions that result in the âreasonable, totally non-transphobicâ people determining this this or that trans woman competing with women is clearly not fair. Even if every sports organization comes up with the optimal policy for minimizing whatever advantage a trans woman has, there is always variance among humans and there will be individuals who go through the transition and donât see their results decline sufficiently for things to be âfairâ and there will be athletes who transition and end up no longer able to compete at a high level.
Beyond that, its clear that even a âdeservingâ champion (someone who was sufficiently elite at male events pre-transition) will always be seen as a cheater.
So by all means sports organizations should come up with whatever guidelines that sporting experts and those who truly understand the science of gender issues deem to be fair, reasonable and dignified for trans women and their cis competitors, but âtaking an Lâ on this or that example because IT IS SO OBVIOUS will never lead to positive results.
*Not saying there should be zero rules and anyone identifying as a woman should be able to compete in womanâs sports in all circumstances
Dammit, I really wish I had time earlier in the weekend/yesterday to comment on this thread.
First, my bonafides: I swam competitively from age 6 through high school. I still loosely follow the sport, especially womenâs distance events, because that was my specialty. Am cis-gender woman.
I have asked my father for comments about this issue, and I will be happy to post them when he answers me. Why my dad? Because he is a US Swimming/NCAA/Ohio High School official and knows that world back and forth. He has officiated at the US Olympic and Paralympic trials, and at hundreds of college and high school level meets all over the country. Iâm absolutely sure heâll have insider details about the US Swimming and NCAA decisions in this case that we donât know about.
As for my personal opinion, I say let her swim. If you have a problem with her, why do you not have an issue with Katie Ledecky, who absolutely DOMINATED the sport? For example, In 2016, Ledecky won the gold medal in the 400m free with a time of 3:56.46. The silver medalistâs time was 4:01.23. Thatâs nearly 5 seconds differenceâŚat the Olympics, the worldâs best. And weâre complaining about a collegiate swimmer beating her competition by 13 seconds in the equivalent NCAA event.
Iâll get back to you with my dadâs thoughts.
9 Likes
Credit: a thread lurker
FWIW. There are plenty of places on the internet where people discuss trans issues more safely than here. Unfortunately they tend to be explicitly queer or trans spaces.
Do better UP.
4 Likes
When in comes to trans issues I use a variation of Saganâs maxim, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Republican social claims require extraordinary evidence.
If a social issue is both supported by most republicans and about a minority group I am going to assume their position is de facto wrong unless I am provided extraordinary evidence to the contrary. I will require long term scientific studies that there is any harm in letting trans people compete before I will grant that this entire issue is anything more than the next in an endless line of republican hate policy.
6 Likes
That is pretty much what I said.
Iâm also certain, as you say, that if this discussion takes place in a trans only space or similar, then it is better. But I assume that such spaces are a minority of internet posting spaces.