Yes, those rules exist for both cis and trans athletes. I’m pretty sure you can be trans and on hormones, and still come in under anti-doping levels. If I’m wrong about that, let me know.
It would depend, since you’re getting rid of male and female classifications would the Y and not Y chromosome divisions replace these exact requirements? If so, those AFAB who transition to male, including hormone therapy, wouldn’t be able to compete in either division.
This also doesn’t even address the fact that your belief that a chromosome is the best way to differentiate divisions in sports isn’t backed up by anything scientifically.
That’s not true. They could be on hormones that just put them in the physiologic male ranges (In other words, about what normal testes produce).
But no one, not even men, can supplement with testosterone and go way above the physiologic range. Plenty of non-professional-athlete cis men do this for a variety of reasons, but they’re (at least the ones I know) not trying to compete in sports where there is testing for doping. I think (but don’t know) that trans men may be tempted to do the same sort of thing for the same sort of reasons. If they did, they wouldn’t be able to compete either.
- That’s not my belief
- It doesn’t have to be the best way. I was just asking why you objected to it.
- What scientific backing exactly are you looking for?
1 Like
Do you see any issues with this guy for example competing in “no Y” sporting leagues?
You think the Rivermans of the world will be fine with their daughters playing soccer with trans men?
Like theres a reason we thought this conversation was going to be ill informed at best and toxic at worst.
What division do you believe AFAB and transitioned to male would be competing in? He wouldn’t have a Y chromosome, so he would be assigned to the non-Y division. If the standards for the non-Y division mimic current female standards, he would test out of the range and be ineligible to compete.
Well, if you’re looking for a solution with no “issues”, I think you’re going to be disappointed.
I do not know that person, so I’d need more info. But if that’s a bodybuilding competition, I’ve definitely plenty of cis women who are more jacked than that.
If this isn’t your belief, then you should be aware that your JAQing off hurts real people.
1 Like
Seems like the only issues in competition you are willing to accept involve trans exclusion. You want to exclude trans women from women’s sports, or trans men from XX sports.
So your solution is that trans men can have the hormone levels typical of a cis man and compete with mostly women. But a trans woman can have the hormone levels typical of a cis women and cant.
I think part of the reason you are struggling here is because you dont really have a base level understanding of trans issues. There are plenty of “trans 101” resources out there on the internet. It would be best to spend some time there first, rather than expecting trans people and trans allies to do the work for you.
Yeah, I guess this is confusing because AFAB doesn’t necessarily tell you what chromosomes are there.
So, if we’re talking about AFAB with no Y chromosomes, then I think there is room in the range to still be on some T and still come in under. As I said I don’t know for sure.
I didn’t want to do a deep dive to figure this out for sure, but if you have the data available, I’ll definitely read it.
Sorry to disappoint you daddy. I’ll do better next time.
1 Like
I never said that these are the only acceptable solutions.
I was pretty clear up front where I stood.
I think discussion and an attempt to understand things better has benefits that compensate for that harm that you point out. As much as everyone likes to equivocate, this is not how a Chiefs Planet discussion on the topic would go. I’d guess that everyone posting here, including Riverman is in the bottom 10 percentile of anti-transness (i.e., where 99th percentile is the most anti-trans).
1 Like
My best friend’s eldest child is transgender and on puberty blockers right now and I’m glad we live in a country where the access to such things is not too difficult. Looking forward to more of this exciting line of questioning trying to uncover the venomous transphobia that is definitely lurking in here somewhere.
The endpoint of this sort of argument is the elimination of women’s sport. We don’t segregate college degrees into “men’s engineering” and “women’s engineering”. The segregation of sport is done to provide some 50% of the population with a competitive environment where the deck is not heavily stacked against them. The definition of “heavily stacked” of course has to be somewhat arbitrary. For the sake of argument, if 10 years from now the top five positions in the record books for some women’s swimming event are all held by trans women, then I think that would be an untenable situation. If trans women don’t demonstrate any general advantage over cis women, then there’s no problem. Where in between that you decide to draw a line I don’t know, but I don’t think it’s transphobic to discuss it.
3 Likes
Not if you actually want to live as a man
Do you have the actual ranges available? I’m genuinely curious.
But if you’re sure, I’ll take your word for it. If that’s the case, then just consider what ChrisV suggested. It also avoids all the messy karyotyping.
We might have to even tweak that for a Caster Semenya type situation.
Or if you want to stick with karyotyping and use the Chris model
- No Y
- Open
Presumably open would have higher T levels permitted before doping is alleged and hence our AFAB trans male now has somewhere to compete (and likely where he would want to).
So trans women can play, they just cant win.
Do I have that right?
Should we take away Phelps’ records as well since he had an unnatural advantage?
I think what he is saying is they can win, but they can only win so much. It’s not clear where that line is.
Well we are about 3 years into the NCAA having rules governing trans athletes and we have two division one trans champs, pretty sure we arent in the “winning too much” territory, right?
It sounds like he would agree with that given what he posted.
Then what in the everloving fuck are we doing here? This is a non issue drummed up by the worst people in the fucking world and a good 30% of this board is eating it up like its the tastiest god damn ambrosia.
THERE IS NO ISSUE. FUCKING KNOCK IT OFF
3 Likes