Trans Issues In Sports/Society

[mukdukaluk]

The trollz who want to make it so that his kids lose their golf/equestrian/sailing tournaments to people competing in the gender class that is closest to what they identify as?

[MrWookie]

Basically, my thoughts on actual biology as they pertain to sex and gender are:

1. There are a surprising number of ways for someone to be intersex, and multiple ways for someone to have a karyotype that doesn’t match the gross anatomy that they were born with. As such, it’s pretty haughty to declare a single feature the biological determinant of sex when people may have a mix of features.
2. Being trans is something that trans people feel unshakably, that it’s an immutable part of themselves.
3. Given the above and how little we actually understand about human genetics and biology, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that someone is “biologically trans,” in that there is something in their genetics, epigenetics, gross anatomy, or otherwise that would induce an immutable mismatch between their gender identity and at least one other aspect of their biology. If that were to be the case, it doesn’t make sense to describe someone as being “biologically” one way while their “identity,” as if it has nothing to do with their biology even though it does, some other way.

I don’t think many trans people would come at you for using “biological male” as a shorthand when you’re coming from a place of trying to be sensitive and understanding to describe a mismatch between gender identity and one or more biological characteristics, but it is a term that’s been weaponized by anti-trans people to mean that a trans woman is truly a biological male, as if their limited understanding of biology tells a truer tale of the person than the person tells about themselves. But in general, when referring to the biology of a person, you can use karyotype or gross anatomy or a specific genetic feature to be more precise about the underlying biology, or AMAB/AFAB are good if you are being a bit less specific about the biology in question.

[Rugby]

For those who might not recognize the acronyms.

AMAB - Assigned Male at Birth
AFAB - Assigned Female at Birth

[Melkerson]

@anon29622970

The reason people get labeled as transphobic in here is because they’re posting shit about how she shouldn’t be allowed to compete based on a bunch of bullshit Republican talking points, but they’re incapable of actually stating what specific new policy they want the sports governing bodies to put in place or how they want them to enforce it. If this is such an important issue that you believe they need to change, what do you want changed? Otherwise admit that your opinion is coming from a shitty place and you need to do some self-examination on the topic.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of this. To be clear, there are obvious problems with it. But I’m curious about what you think the problems are.

@Melkerson

If this was done (i.e., karyotpying everybody which I agree is impractical), then instead of men’s and women’s you would have these two divisions

1. Has no Y chromosome
2. Has a Y chromosome (i.e., at least one)

There might be some edge cases that don’t fit, so the definition of Y chromosome might be a bit tricky. But those would be the edge cases of the edge cases.

[anon29622970]

@Melkerson

Out of curiosity, what do you think of this. To be clear, there are obvious problems with it. But I’m curious about what you think the problems are.

So the solution is to require a genetic test on 1/2 million college athletes because people are uncomfortable with 9 of them(that we know of)? And that’s just the collegiate level. We can’t even require a vaccine to compete in athletics, but I’m sure conservatives will agree that this is far less invasive because reasons.

[ParlaySlow]

I don’t know much about this except what I read up on this weekend and giving it a think.

I think the USA swimming policy (requiring 3 years of HRT instead of the existing 1) is basically an extension of the position that some seem to be implying (i.e. if transgender athletes actually start winning championships then by definition there is something wrong that needs to be addressed).

In general, there is a narrative being pushed that this is going to start happening ALL THE TIME and it’s going to RUIN WOMEN’S SPORTS. But I think in reality that a transitioned woman being able to compete at an elite level is probably going to be very rare for all sorts of reasons.

There are dozens of transgender athletes in NCAA sports already that are not competing for championships, and it doesn’t seems like anyone thinks that’s a crisis.

[Melkerson]

@anon29622970

@Melkerson

Out of curiosity, what do you think of this. To be clear, there are obvious problems with it. But I’m curious about what you think the problems are.

So the solution is to require a genetic test on 1/2 million college athletes because people are uncomfortable with 9 of them(that we know of)? And that’s just the collegiate level. We can’t even require a vaccine to compete in athletics, but I’m sure conservatives will agree that this is far less invasive because reasons.

So your only issue with it is the difficulty of administering all of those tests? I agree that is a huge problem. But hypothetically, if they could be easily and inexpensively administered to everyone, then it would be a fine solution? Or is there more?

[Rugby]

Belligerent? Yes. And unapologetically so.

Most intolerant? Really?

I’m amazed you dont see the obvious parallels here between your approach and the “the real bigots are BLM for being mean to racists” type nonsense.

Your posting is making trans people feel shitty. You should examine why that is, and do something about it, rather than whining that I was too mean to you.

[anon29622970]

No, I’m not ok with it at all. I would think my first statement would make it clear how stupid I think that solution is, but just in case it wasn’t clear. Requiring a genetic test to compete in sports is an unbelievably stupid idea.

[WichitaDM]

No I insulted you for your horrible transphobic posting while being a privileged upper class white man. You have every advantage in the world and shitting all over trans people is extra disgusting because of it.

[Riverman]

LOL “having issues with one swimmer” = shitting all over millions of people

JLawOk

[Melkerson]

@anon29622970

No, I’m not ok with it at all. I would think my first statement would make it clear how stupid I think that solution is, but just in case it wasn’t clear. Requiring a genetic test to compete in sports is an unbelievably stupid idea.

For the collegiate level and above? Don’t they have to submit to drug tests and the like? Why exactly is karyotyping worse?

To be clear, I don’t think this is a great solution either. But I do think that analyzing what exactly is wrong with it will help understanding of the larger issue.

So far we’ve got

1. Too expensive/impractical to administer all of these tests
2. Requiring a genetic test to compete in sports is an unbelievably stupid idea

Anything else?

[anon29622970]

What specific actions do you believe should have been taken or should be taken in the future to solve the problem that you have?

[WichitaDM]

You told people here who were supporting trans people to TAKE THE L and openly said that Dems shouldn’t support trans people because it’s a losing issue. Amongst other horrific takes. Your posting wasn’t about one swimmer and you know it. You specifically said “THIS IS A HORRIBLE ISSUE FOR DEMS”. It clearly isn’t about one swimmer for you.

[JonnyA]

At least be honest about your position. You have a problem with any trans athlete competing with women.

edit: also, referring to trans women as “trans dudes” is pretty offensive.

[anon29622970]

You’re placing a burden on a half million athletes at the collegiate level alone, and countless more at other levels because of a personal problem that you have. Not a problem that the sport’s governing bodies have, but your personal bugaboo. You don’t think the athletes themselves, the coaches, administrators, the ACLU and other bodies who fight on behalf of civil liberties will have a major issue with this?

And now you state only the collegiate level or above, so why does this become a problem that needs an asinine solution only at these levels?

[anon29622970]

Riverman espousing these beliefs shouldn’t really be surprising. He’s basically a Republican, always has been.

[Melkerson]

@anon29622970

You’re placing a burden on a half million athletes at the collegiate level alone,

The burden would presumably be on the NCAA and the schools.

and countless more at other levels because of a personal problem that you have. Not a problem that the sport’s governing bodies have, but your personal bugaboo.

Obviously the sport’s governing bodies have a problem with this. That is why they have come up with guidelines related to testosterone levels and other related things. Their attempted regulations are a way of addressing the problems that they perceive.

You don’t think the athletes themselves, the coaches, administrators, the ACLU and other bodies who fight on behalf of civil liberties will have a major issue with this?

You would do better to actually explain the problems specifically rather than leave them to the reader’s imagination.

And now you state only the collegiate level or above, so why does this become a problem that needs an asinine solution only at these levels?

Well, let’s work on that first.

[ParlaySlow]

Well you’re never going to get to anything ‘objective’. Like if I’m born male and I do intense weight training and get strong, and then I later transition to female, probably a lot of those adaptions that I was able to make stay with me (potentially for life) and have nothing to do with current hormone levels. Are we saying we have to account for anything and everything?

Perhaps you grew up at high altitude and I didn’t, and your body got more efficient at getting O2 into your bloodstream. And that’s just a long term adaption that means I just have to work harder than you all else being equal. Is that unfair?

On the other hand, I think the HRT can probably seriously hinder performance, and being trans in society is probably not conducive to competing athletically at an elite level.

I think the important thing to remember is that none of these people had some grand plan to game society by transitioning and competing in women’s sports. So I think the current solution of some amount of HRT seems good enough and then, yes, there will be some trans women champions.

[ParlaySlow]

Isn’t one of the consequences of these new laws for high school sports that transitioned males that may be taking masculinizing hormones are compelled to compete with girls? Or have they addressed that in some way?