Like guys, I get it. But pretending that having an issue with someone competing as a female 2 years after competing as an average performing male and winning a national championship is equal to Bari Weissing about cancel culture is fucking absurd. Take the L in this exact case.
Do you have any coherent or informed ideas about the impact of hormone replacement theory on all this? Because you keep asserting that this person was Really A Man and âsuddenlyâ jumped over to compete with against women, and you are really glossing over the whole MULTI YEAR PROCESS where she began transitioning in 2019 and won in 2022 with a course of hormone replacement theory in between. There was nothing âsuddenâ about it. She even finished behind 4 other cis gendered women in January this year! If she was really a Cheating Man Pretending To Be A Woman that seems really odd.
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Stop doing this. Suddenly is false. Stop buying what the republicans are selling you.
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Not all opinions are created equal. Some are formed by knowledge, study, compassion, and broad consideration of the issues and people involved. Some come from ignorance and base feelings of fear or disgust.
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I guess Iâm just frustrated by the myriad cis dudes who donât otherwise care about womenâs sports whose opinions are being amplified by this story.
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Yes and these things become apparent as one explains and defends the opinion. Judging based on that is superior to judging based on the source.
It is incredible hubris to assume that a cis guy deserves the benefit of the doubt when pontificating a trans women in sports compared with either cis or trans women.
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Who said anything about giving him the benefit of the doubt? Certainly not me.
Yeah you did. You are telling me to disregard the source and only focus on the content of the opinion, as if an opinion formed by lived experience should be treated as if itâs on equal footing from someone thinking about it for the first time, so long as the latter is articulate
I donât think benefit of the doubt means what you think it means. It definitely doesnât mean âfocus on the content of their opinionâ.
Generally when you say you are giving someone the benefit of the the doubt, you are believing them despite doubts about their argument that you might have (maybe because of their credentials). Iâm advocating the exact opposite of that.
âBenefit of the doubtâ might apply if you said trans women should get the benefit of the doubt, but that isnât quite what you said initially.
Just to recap.
You came into this issue admitting you didnt know much.
A bunch of people have pointed you to the sources and ideas that could help you know a little more.
You are now just going to repeat the âIâve thought about for a second and it seems wrongâ argument that you started withâŚ
So why wouldnât âfuck offâ be the appropriate response here?
Id say we all responded pretty courteously given the emotional nature of the topic and your refusal to even consider the alternative, Riverman.
Well, mainly because it doesnât help anyone. @Riverman isnât a moron. But the deplorable hooks have caught on something here. We should probably keep pushing on what it is that really drives these narratives on people that really shouldnât be susceptible to them and try to make that part of the âplaybookâ for addressing this with the general public.
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Opinions, by definition, are neither true nor false, so OK, itâs not the best expression, but I use it to mean that the opinion deserves the same presumption of validity and consideration, and no, I donât think opinions of the unaffected should be presumed to be on equal footing with those of the affected. Being unaffected does not make one more objective. It makes one more ignorant.
My take on it is thatâs itâs a wedge non issue being generated by assholes to beat up on trans kids so some combination of âfuck off pretending to care about womens swimmingâ and âlet the experts figure it out with advice from doctors and trans groupsâ seems appropriate.
Like context absolutely matters here. If you enter the debate about police shootings with an insistence on discussing one particular instance where a black person deserved to be killed by a white cop, then you are doing harm. We choose the stories we elevate and discuss, itâs not a neutral act.
Gee, I wonder what could have possibly been on her mind following her win that would lead to such a poor showing.
I assume now that she lost we can put a pin in the whole âthis man SUDDENLY winning championships in ladies events left and rightâ talking point to bed?
Is it possible she worked her ass off at the stroke she won the championship at and, I dunno, was the best swimmer out there that day?
I donât think the IOC itself has examined the science necessarily, nor has any binding directives on the topic actually. The IOC has put out a framework on how the individual sport governing bodies can come to a decision themselves âto determine how an athlete may be at a disproportionate advantage against their peers, taking into consideration the nature of each sport.â IOC definitely exerts some pressure on these organizations but I havenât followed the process deeply. There are even layers of requirements within a sportâs organizing bodies, for example the USA Weightlifting defines the requirements here:
A post-pubescent athlete will be eligible for participation, provided the following:
MTF Individual:
⢠Should show evidence that hormone therapy has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time (two year minimum) to minimize gender related competitive advantages.
⢠If gender confirmation surgery is desired, the surgery has been completed, the athlete is in good health, and has been cleared by their surgeon to participate in Weightlifting.
⢠Legal recognition of assigned/identified gender has been received from one or more appropriate authorities.FTM Individual:
⢠If gender confirmation surgery is desired, the surgery has been completed, the athlete is in good health, and has been cleared by their surgeon to participate in Weightlifting
⢠Legal recognition of assigned/identified gender has been received from one or more appropriate authorities.
⢠If hormone therapy is desired, it is being monitored by a medical doctor and is not being used as a way to enhance athletic advantage.
Whereas the International Weightlifting Federation, which associates more directly with the IOC outlines their requirements here:
- Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the
male category without restriction.- Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the
female category under the following conditions:
2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The
declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum
of four years.
2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum
has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first
competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on
a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12
months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in
womenâs competition).
2.3. The athleteâs total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10
nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the
female category.
2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the
event of non-compliance, the athleteâs eligibility for female competition
will be suspended for 12 months.
So basically, these sports have guidelines on the subject and I think the conversation would be MUCH MORE PRODUCTIVE if we focused these individual items. When we start painting all athletes in broad brush strokes or absolutes is where we get into Right Wing Talking Points and things start going off the rails.
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Really not understanding why itâs so hard to simply admit this one exact case is problematic.
Just take the L on this one and make your (probably very persuasive) case on more favorable turf.
Yes because knowing how republicans operate they will absolutely stop bullying trans kids once we take the L on this one individual story, and it will never be brought up again.
Like, jesus tapdancing christ man, was I wrong to think you were more fucking intelligent than this?
Sure, if you want me to presume that a trans personâs opinion deserves more validity before hearing the opinion, thatâs fine. But once you have heard and evaluated the reasoning behind the opinions, there is no need to presume any more.