The Dems need 10 GOP senators to pass non-reconciliation bills. Or a couple more senators on board for filibuster reform. “The Dems” are not the problem here–it’s the Republicans and Manchin/Sinema.
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Isn’t more likely a lot of Dems don’t want to nuke the fb and they are using Man as cover?
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Last I checked Manchin and Sinema were Dems. And ya what TheHip said.
Also let’s not pretend like the party couldn’t essentially force them to end it if they really wanted to by cutting off the fundraising spigot like they do with the progressive candidates.
As always the Dems will make a good show of it before ultimately doing what they always do.
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If you’re desperate to justify your hatred of the Democratic Party, I can see how you might convince yourself of that, but it doesn’t make much sense. There are a handful of other senators who want to use filibuster reform as a threat and/or wait for the Republicans to do something provocative before pulling the trigger, but I suspect most of them want to be powerful, effective legislators, which they obviously can’t do with a supermajority requirement.
That said, there might be a kernel of truth here. You could imagine that the Manchin/Sinema price for some sort of filibuster reform was that it exclude health care and maybe DC statehood and anything else that they were afraid of being forced to walk the plank on. If that was the situation, it is possible that the party would prefer to have them as the whipping children rather than bear the storm of hate for being unable to move progressive legislation. Unfortunate if true. It does seem like McConnell did really good work for the bad guys to get this to blow up so soon. It would be nice if there was at least a little ambiguity about how far the GOP could obstruct before going too far, rather than being totally explicit that the answer is as far as you want.
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The simpler explanation is that Manchin and Sinema are acting out of perceived political self interest. Saying it’s “the Dems” is like MAGA guys saying after ACA repeal fell through that the GOP had been taken over by the liberal agenda, when really it was just two people: Susan Collins voting out of self-preservation and McCain taking a stand against Trump. Chuck Schumer could have easily said from the start that filibuster reform had no shot because Manchin and Sinema wouldn’t vote for it and never made an issue of it. “The Dems” by and large clearly wanted it.
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I’m sorry but this is ignoring literally 40 years of Dem politics/governance. The people who continue to support the Washington Generals routine with “Just be patient”, “Real change is coming soon, basically all the Dems want it” and “It’s just Manchin and Sinema the rest really want it” are starting to read like Qanon people to me. Literally this iteration of the Dem party has zero chance to tackle any of the really pressing large issues. If you disagree with that tell me why rather than the typical excusism of “It’s hard” or “Fkin Manchin”.
Again the Dems can essentially make them vote for it. Why is it you think they won’t do that?
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If you’re desperate to justify your hatred of the Democratic Party, I can see how you might convince yourself of that, but it doesn’t make much sense. Manchin/Sinema aren’t up for election for 4 years. They’re incumbents–they can raise their own money to a much greater extent than challengers. And the threat isn’t very credible–is the Democratic Party going to just let Arizona slip away in 2024? Threatening to support a primary challenger against Sinema conceivably could create some leverage, but not against Manchin.
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Nobody hates the “Democratic Party” here. We hate the soulless ghouls who control it who have no intention of doing anything meaningful. I personally want the party to be better than it has been. The fact you continue to stan for it year after year is sad.
Also Sinema and Manchin would cave if the party leadership told them no more $$$ if they don’t go along with it.
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I’m annoyed by Manchin obviously, but he is not the target of my rage. Two points:
- I think Manchin / Sinema are making a miscalculation that voters will reward them for standing in the way of the Democratic agenda. The stuff Democrats want to do is immensely popular. Your 2024 opponent is going to call you a radical socialist no matter what, its a lot better to stand in front of voters having delivered tangible results than to say you preserved the filibuster. Normal people don’t even know what the filibuster is.
Now, that analysis assumes they care most about re-election. Maybe they actually care most about pleasing their corporate masters, which is certainly possible but I haven’t really seen evidence of that other than in the general way we know corporations own Congress. Is corporate America really outraged at the thought of money in the pockets of consumers or an efficient vaccine distribution process, both of which help the bottom line? I just don’t see it.
- Democrats simply didn’t win enough Senate seats. There are so many reasons for this, but I would point to:
- A failure to enact any structural reform when they last had the trifecta
- Running shitlib centrist losers who try to win by being GOP-lite
- Dumping all their money to consultant ghouls who phone in a few shitty TV ads, don’t know dick about digital, lose, and still walk away with all the money
- Not being on the ground in the pandemic while the death cult was pounding doors
- Most importantly, just being dogshit messengers who simply are incapable of arriving at a simple, coherent story and pounding away for years
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Well, NC at least got the best available candidate to finally run:
https://twitter.com/JeffJacksonNC/status/1354083777136513024
Schumer told him no last time, when he would have easily beat Tillis.
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Of course corporations don’t have a problem with more stimulus or vaccine money. The Dems can do that without the filibuster though. Corporations care deeply about things like their taxes going up, meaningful action on climate change which will hurt their bottom line, things that will help solve the income inequality crisis, M4A and on and on. Corporations hate pretty much the entire progressive agenda. Keeping the filibuster intact ensures there is a 0% chance anything meaningful along those lines gets accomplished.
Corporations are spending millions a year on Democrats. It isn’t charity, they expect a return on that investment or they wouldn’t be making it. The idea that they aren’t mostly bought and paid for is absurd.
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Schumer allegedly told him to “sit in a windowless basement to raise money for 16 months, so we can use it to run negative ads.”
Yikes.
Even simpler than that is that they are doing it because of their actual (dumb) beliefs in bipartisanship and balance of power.
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Cliffs of Jeff Jackson and why you guys think he’s got a good shot at the senate?
Interestingly it sure looks to me like the insurance/finance types are starting to be more afraid of climate change than they are of doing something about climate change. Someone must have told them that they are massively massively exposed to a risk so big the government couldn’t even bail them out of.
If people were forced to explain how X should be accomplished this thread would be much more interesting.
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The only realistic path forward is that Democrats nibble away at the filibuster to get shit done. There will never be a “THATS KAMALA HARRIS’ MUSIC, OH NO DONT DO IT, DONT DO IT!!!” moment.
They’ll just change the rules a little to do whatever it is they want to do. Expand reconciliation rules, amend the Byrd rule, etc. etc. etc. It is key to remember they can do literally anything they want with the rules with 50 votes.
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Getting a 50/50 senate was always about being able to confirm judges and hopefully getting the stimulus stuff and tax stuff done through reconciliation. People who thought the filibuster was going to get nuked and we were getting added states were always deluding themselves. That was only maybe in play when we thought the dems could have picked up like 54-56 seats.
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If you are talking to me I don’t think it is that complicated. You do whatever you have to do to nuke the filibuster. You then pass some version of the GND, M4A, tax reform and whatever else.
It isn’t really that complicated. The Dems have the power and the ability to do it. All that is missing is the actual will to do it. Which is my critique that bobman seems to have a problem with. Without the will to actually do it all of the rest is just noise. Enough Dems don’t have the will to do it whether that is 1 or 50 doesn’t really matter.
It’s the fact the party hasn’t had the will to do anything meaningful for the last 40 years that is the real problem here. I am not convinced how many seats the Dems have will matter if they are all the current crop of shitlibs. 59-60 wasn’t enough in 2009-2010 either.
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