Well… you can try that, but I think the idea of that passing in 2009 to now is virtually nil. We live in a world where you can’t pass simple voting rights legislation. I don’t see any reason to suspect that this plan has any more chance than Ron Paul did of becoming president.
Personally, I think the best way of going about it is getting a public option on board that people flock to. If you get that done with a real medicaid expansion you can do real good right away, and if the public option kneecaps the insurance industry then great.
I don’t think that’s too likely either in the short term, but it’s far closer than anything else proposed here.
We have much deeper problem of needing to counteract the narrative that big government is bad. That takes time and the ability to produce evidence of government being good. Shifting the underlying narrative that the Democratic platform can be derived from is arguably more important than things like health care or kids in cages.
Biden pushing for a bigger COVID bill than I expected was a step in the right direction, but pushing Biden to the left has merely meant shifting him from a conservative Democrat to a moderate Democrat. That’s worth something, but isn’t what we need. I think he has good intentions and isn’t dumb, but his policy instincts are still informed by non-progressive narratives.
It’s hard to know where to start with this. I’m lazy? Like man you are have made literally thousands of posts on the internet that I have unfortunately read defending your own greed and station in life. Meanwhile you literally are oblivious to the suffering around you and don’t realize your own station in the laborer class in life.
Any time you get challenged you act like a petulent child. Literally no one here is calling doctors the problem and yet you come here to argue if people have UHC we will take your precious money away when you are literally a victim of the same thing most of the rest of us are fighting against.
It’s absolutely disgusting and now your horrible treatment of posters in the Covid thread makes a lot of sense.
Ikes going to Ikes. Slithered back during covid under the false pretense of covid solidarity and now shits his Ikes takes in every thread once he has his first shred of credibility in a decade. That has to be obvious to anyone with a brain.
You are literally ashamed you are Ikes. If you weren’t you would freely admit it so fuck off.
I explained to you why the entire health care industry would be against the single payer systems proposed. You didn’t bring it up because you were too ignorant about the subject to even know what would likely happen.
Instead of learning from that, you dishonestly assign all sorts of positions to me. I suppose it’s a dumb fucking argument anyways, as it’s all hypothetical bullshit. Regardless, your wish for no ACA so we could have gotten single payer wouldn’t have worked, as previously illustrated and you refuse to actually acknowledge. It would have resulted in tens of millions of people having no insurance and likely tens of thousands of deaths, maybe more than a hundred thousand. Glad that you’re not in charge.
I bear no ill will towards you Wichita, but I have no idea how you can think that this is my point. It’s not. The point is that your plan would have relied on some sort of massive change of the opinions of doctors and hospitals to allow for a single payer system in the hypothetical scenario that the ACA didn’t pass. The reason why is that people don’t volunteer for huge pay cuts.
That doesn’t mean that people don’t deserve healthcare. It makes your proposed political strategy unlikely to work, because powerful interest groups like hospitals and physicians wouldn’t accept pay cuts.
You have called me at least one nasty thing, unprovoked at least at first, in every post.
I have no real ill will towards you either.
That being said this all got started by saying incrementalism sucks. My example was ACA. Now is ACA better than pre-ACA. Yes it is. It works to get some people health care who didn’t have it before. That is good.
What I am saying is that the vast vast majority of the country thinks we should have affordable health care for all. If you asked that poll question without using the political hot button works and described it as “Do you think everyone in the United States deserves affordable health care?” The results are probably 75-25. Meanwhile our reality is that it’s literally impossible.
The ACA made a lot of people true believers in it, including Biden, it’s a literal political issue for pols and voters on the left now. Those people aren’t ascribing to a Bernie style plan because it means their defense of the ACA was wrong.
So like I asked Clovis(and others) why is it that we can’t have nice things here like our economic peers. It isn’t because it’s actually not doable. It is that people who have power stand to lose a lot of money if that happened. TBH I really don’t care if we have actual centralized government health care or if the government pays the insurance companies or what. I do think true UHC is better but my desire and concern is for people to have true access.
I also am not for decreasing salaries of doctors or medical workers if we ever hit that mythical world where everyone can have affordable access to health care.
I realize that, but it’s a side effect of many plans… and is in fact a feature of many plans. It is, in fact, very difficult to have such a plan without cutting a lot of doctors salaries… specifically people in various specialties (including mine). You can’t really expand access without cost control as it would be too burdensome. You can’t make health care cheaper without paying people less, and a lot of those people are extremely powerful (from hospitals to drug companies to physicians and more).
I would disagree with the unprovoked part. You compared me to an ignorant hillbilly and have now repeatedly said that I care more about my salary than access to health care based on nothing. That’s a pretty damn big provocation. I’ll apologize for my tone regardless however.
I’m going to try and rephrase this. If 100 million Americans would get health care but your wages went down 20% would you do it? I’m not a doctor but I would in a heartbeat whether it was through taxes or otherwise.
There is also zero evidence that UHC would mean that for you. Or anyone else for that matter. UHC is such a gigantic fantasy land here that there are no serious proposals right now.
Opposing UHC becauase of health care company profits or doctor salaries is nonsense.
This is ludicrously false. It’s been explained repeatedly why. You can try to say it’s not strong enough based on x,y,z but saying it doesn’t exist is, again, dishonest. The most popular and well known UHC proposal calls for medicare/medicaid rates.
If 100 million Americans would get health care but your wages went down 20% would you do it?
This is irrelevant. It costs me nothing to say yes. The point is that hospitals and doctors, as a whole, would absolutely not be ok with that trade. You can talk about how it shouldn’t be that way all you want, but that’s the way it is. People are going to be extremely resistant to giving up 60-70k per year. No other pool of labor would accept such a trade either.
For the hospitals specifically, it would require many to have a major restructuring to keep them financially solvent.
Caffeine is correct that UHC is going to have a lot of pushback from a lot of people in the industry, from doctors to hospital CEOs to pharma execs.
Wichita is correct that the non-existence of UHC is a moral failing and national embarrassment that should be fixed, even if it pisses off a lot of the people in those aforementioned groups.
His point is that no plan has been presented that would do this (“pay them more with the Trillions we save”). Is he wrong? I have no idea, but the way you guys keep ignoring that point and assigning him other positions is incredibly dishonest and frustrating to read (over and over again).
(ETA, I guess it may not be dishonesty, lest I get accused of “ad hominem attacks”, but at the very least it’s poor – perhaps willfully poor – reading comprehension)
Japan manages to pull off affordable health care while keeping its doctors well-paid, though not as well-paid as American doctors. Of course, this is equally true of Japanese CEOs compared to their American counterparts.
Interestingly, I’ve visited a number of doctors’ offices in Japan and the overwhelming vehicle of choice among them is a BMW. Don’t know whether they own vacation homes, but I bet most could afford one if they wanted one.
Why do you post like this? Shouting down every post that doesn’t align with you with ridiculous straw-manny sarcasm, while waiting for other people on “your side” to make the actual arguments for you to heart is just tedious.
It’s essentially what they are doing. Tell me how doctors won’t have their pay cut. Ok now tell me what happens to all the people that work in health insurance. Now what about people that like their current insurance?
It goes on and on and on because they don’t actually want this to happen so they keep creating “gotchas” until you create an entire health care system with no possible downsides.