I guess this is just a fundamental disagreement. You are all acting like 2022 or 2024 are actually the game. The game is right here, in front of us–it’s passing legislation that makes an impact while the Democrats have power, because they likely won’t have this power ever again in our lifetimes if they don’t pass this legislation. Manchin and Sinema are blocking or watering down this legislation. They are not the good guys in this story and they deserve all of this criticism.
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Sinema is almost the worst Senator in VORP so yeah I’d agree that she’s a huge problem. Manchin is a bonus senator who can honestly shrug, say ‘the ends justify the means I am to get reelected’ and be right.
I’m sorry but if Manchin wasn’t the Senator from WV it would be Quincy McQuneen of Qanon in his place. That guy literally can’t do anything wrong because that’s what he saved us from. We are not in a position to critique or criticize his game.
I’m sorry but absolutely none of the people shitting on Manchin have figured out how to steal a Senate seat in a red state. Until you do accept that he’s better at being a politician from WV than you’ll ever be at anything.
Really reminds me of people criticizing Lebron James or Michael Jordan’s technique in basketball. I’m sorry but I’m not going to not make fun of the people delivering those takes unless they’ve done something super super real in basketball.
Sinema is super likely to be a Koch brothers plant who won a Democratic primary in a winnable state for a replacement level democrat. She’s a dumpster fire disaster of a candidate for us.
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We are 65ish days into the new administration? Forget about his words. What has he actually done other than be the 50th vote for the stimulus package? Focus on the man’s actions not what happens in the words leading up to those actions. You are never going to like his words. They are not for you.
I agree with most of what you said in VORP and Manchin, but Hokie is right the time is now. If dems don’t get HR1 passed, Manchin next election means very little because dems will be locked out of power for decades. Our very democracy might not survive if these insane fucks hold onto power.
You see how crazy the GOP is now, how anti democracy they are, the time is definitely now.
I think this is a fair point, and maybe three years from now we’re patting Joey M on the back for saving the day. But more likely I think you’re effectively covering for him by pretending his words and his actions are completely separate. The things that Dems have to cave on to secure his vote are hurting progress right now. His words are watering down our legislation right now (we just saw it with stimulus eligibility). Until there’s something to vote on, his words are his actions, and right now they’re self-inflicted wounds among the Democrats. And to what end–are 2024 voters really going to care what words he said back in 2021?
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It’s at least half this, imo.
She’s not bad, but dunking on the likes of Doocy requires little skill. Too easy. Maybe she has more in her, but it’s impossible to know for sure.
Feinstein is peerless in this metric. Distance between her and 99th place gotta be more than the distance between 99th and 1st.
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Do you know what VORP means? If Manchin dies/resigns/doesn’t run for re-election, who exactly do you envision we end up with instead?
Manchin can suck and still have an enormous VORP.
Edit: My Pony’s VORP is clearly negative.
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I don’t know. It’s close between Sinema and Feinstein. HR1 is so fucking critical that Sinema is #1 if she alone stops it. If she comes around Feinstein can take back the crown.
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Arizona is a close enough state that a replacement senator could easily be a Republican. Feinstein could pretty much only be replaced by someone much further left than she is.
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Value Over Replacement Player. It means that Manchin is much better at softball than an average (replacement-level) Senator.
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I think you’re going to need to show your work here.
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Manchin will be on the right side of HR1. This will take place after he gets some ornamental (because the 15 dollar mw was never happening with the loledems… that thing was genius they managed to get all the votes they needed to keep the corporations happy AND get most of their eDems a vote on the record for raising labor costs which will help them get elected next time around) concession made that he can campaign on later.
He’s already semi supported it by making statements about what the minimum level of voting access should be.
No DC will probably not get to be a state. I’m predicting that’s what he kicks out. Yes it’s stupid, but if they blow up the gerrymandering everywhere else, make voting accessible, and the rest that’s not really absolutely mandatory. The senate map in 2022 is pretty bad for the GOP actually. They’re very obviously eroding the filibuster as much as necessary to get things done.
Sure. And the justification is that as bad as they are, they are still better than the even worse option that would replace them. Where is the error in that?
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It’s bad if you prefer right wing rule to suboptimal Democrats in the eternal hope that the only way to good governance is through a one party Republican theocracy that would eventually come crashing down some day and give birth to a proper socialist utopia.
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Is it a commonly held belief that social paradise is just the other side of the Handmaid’s Tale?
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This is true, she’s like the 4th most conservative senator from the most liberal state by several orders of magnitude.
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It was a pretty common take in 2016 at least. Let Trump burn it all down, and then everything will be fantastic.
Ah yes. 2016 - somehow not the worst year in memory.
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He’s been with us on every key vote except for Kavanaugh, and his vote didn’t matter there anyway. He’s a senator from a state a presidential candidate won twice by 40 points who voted to remove that president twice. I think one of the biggest mistakes of the modern progressive movement is not looking at candidates through the lens of who they represent and where they come from. The type of candidate that you support would never win in WV in a million years. If progressives want to concentrate their fire on conservative senators it should be senators like Feinstein and Sinema, who you could primary and then go on to win a general. Although honestly progressives training their fire on Manchin probably helps Manchin anyway, so maybe it’s win win win.
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