The Great Pronoun Debate

Maybe my problem is I’m just naive… I don’t know. Like I can’t imagine wanting to fire or not hire someone because of what gender they identify as, like what the fuck do I care? So maybe I project this onto the rest of the world and so some of this ally-signaling stuff seems dumb to me at first because I think the default assumption should be that I’m not going to discriminate against a trans person just because they are trans.

@dykedaisy ‘s post has definitely opened my eyes to the fact that this is perhaps not the default at all… that in many situations trans people are being overtly discriminated against in a way that I have not witnessed personally.

Anyway this post is a complete ramble because I’m trying to describe a feeling that her posts brought on and it’s difficult to articulate. But thank you again for providing your viewpoint, this kind of post really hits home.

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Clovis, an apt accusation, instead of lumping me in with whomever else, would be to accuse me of being an accelerationist, in that I thought we should abandon pronoun issues and the like and just have a civil and continental war with the deplorable bigots. I’m not saying that, not even in theory, but it would be an understandable interpretation. The pronoun thing is the easiest, most trivial thing one can do, of course you just do it (unless you have a practical nuanced objection like @cassette, though ‘objection’ probably isn’t the correct descriptor there).

Melkerson, obv I agree with all that but it’s not really what I was hitting on. I mean that one’s identity, not the scientific analysis of gender identity but the more abstract and nebulous concept of plain identity, is formed as a reaction to an oppressor. My thinking on this is heavily influenced by African scholars theoretically opposed to pan-Africanism, who deeply resented that they were forced to be pan-Africanist. The thinking is that a Somalian and a Nigerian (or a Botswanan and Algerian, etc, etc) have nothing really in common (besides their obvious shared human identity of being humans that are alive) that wasn’t thrust upon them by white supremacy. Europeans otherized The Dark Continent and the reaction of pan-Africanism was a struggle against that, but a ridiculous and less than ideal state of affairs otherwise. Similarly, the main reason somebody’s gender identity becomes their core identity is because they’re oppressed and denied based on that identity; it’s the armor they’re forced to wear in a battle, not a condition of winning the battle.

This might just be a tangent, I have a habit of going on those when somebody posts something that jogs my brain.

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No, it’s fine, it’s my fault lol. I made the common mistake of thinking that other people are as attuned to my core beliefs as I am, which is literally impossible. Like, I was again filled with a deep, simmering rage when I posted than link to Alcorn’s wikipedia, but it’s ridiculous of me to think, “everybody knows that so if it sounds like I’m saying ‘lol pronouns are dumb’ I’m probably not.” That’s an irresponsible way to have a conversation.

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So friends of mine adopted a kid from China. So they got their acceptance a lot sooner than they expected largely because they said they didn’t care if kid had gender issues. So yeah the kid they were chosen to is a hermaphrodite and they have chosen to raise the kid as a female. All that being said kid is awesome and fun to to be around. But this post from this past week…(names edited out)

Ok, I don’t often talk about kid’s private info openly for her privacy, but we are also not hiding anything.

We had a zoom meeting with people from the headstart program because they work with kid’s preschool. The entire meeting was questioning kid’s gender, asking incredibly intrusive and inappropriate questions and making absolutely unwarranted, unsolicited comments about gender that had no basis in fact. There was no clear purpose for this meeting or line of questioning, nor could anyone satisfactorily answer why they needed this information in the first place.

I am absolutely LIVID.

Husband had to literally ask “Are you asking me to describe my child’s gentialia??” and they continued asking if she was “anatomically male or female”. HOW IS THIS APPROPRIATE??? She’s a 4 year old child just trying to go to school. What her reproductive organs are or how they function has no bearing on anything.

I legitimately have never been angrier.

At least she posted this later

So the director of Head Start called and apologized to us and said she didn’t even know why that meeting happened in the first place and let us know that won’t happen to any other kids or families again.

It’s all so weird and upsetting and husband and I have been on edge all day.

But like WTF. Yeah we still have a ways to go on this shit.

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This is a really tough spot for them to be in and I don’t envy their position. The problem is that regardless of what the kids genitals look like, their brain is probably wired that they either see themselves as male or female. I assume the parents came to this decision after lots of thought and interaction, but I’d be spending at least a decade wondering if I picked wrong and did some sort of irreparable psychological damage as a result.

I remember reading once (maybe I’m not remembering correctly) that in these cases, there is a slight bias toward picking female, since if the kid wants/needs surgery in the future, it normally easier to make female genitalia. So that’s yet another consideration that they need to think about.

It’s plenty stressful without having the school heap this additional bullshit on them.

Holy moly that’s horrible :(

I respect you a lot for admitting to your blind spot. Honestly the best thing for you would be to have an open discussion with someone who is trans if the opportunity ever arises. Hearing their lived experiences directly from them will forever change your understanding of trans issues.

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Yeah. Fair play.

Now i feel (a little) bad. Good to see people changing perspective.

Parents did not make any decision about her lightly. Kid has some trouble days ahead of her, because I mean she just has to. But I do think she is lucky to have them as parents.

Why would you assume I didn’t know what it is? That’s wild.

Nah, this one is mostly guilty as charged, but it’s mocking in the laugh-to-keep-from-crying sense. The part that isn’t mad-libs is actually super depressing and offensive. They’re out here accidentally (?) resurrecting the noble savage mythos for the 21st century. Stryker herself said it’s a bit of a stretch!

I mean, I call myself a pessimist who believes humanity is mostly doomed, but I see some shit like that and I realize that I’ve got nothing on them. When you’re throwing down “Europeans invented not being nice” you clearly think these are the last days and it’s carte blanche time for dgaf-say-any-old-nonsense.

Takes a lot of bravery to take on when you well in advance to be an extremely challenging parental experience.

Is this their first child? I mean being a parent is hard enough.

Wow. Yeah. I remember that…

I’m old enough that I still have some difficulty with the singular they, especially in its most modern context of trans people.

For example I saw a recent headline that said something like “Elliot Page Says They Really Enjoyed Their Recent Vacation” and my first thought was “Who’s ‘they’?” assuming it had to refer to some group of people (a group the may or may not include Page himself).

I assume this reads much more naturally for younger people who are growing up in the midst of this evolution.

Yeah it sucks that we lost a word, but oh well. Reading that headline, I might think Elliot Page is a band or something.

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That type (i.e., Page headline) of singular" they" is actually not the one that caused the most controversy in this thread.

If it makes you feel better, you’re clearly not alone. Otherwise, stories in the news like oreo’s above wouldn’t feel the need to do this every time:

Huh, I would have guessed that might be a little rude. Maybe not?

I don’t think there is anyone here saying that it’s not fine. Maybe I missed it somewhere.

What I was getting at is that I would never ask a gay guy why he chooses to be gay, so I wouldn’t ask about someone’s choice of pronouns. But maybe that’s a bad analogy?

Asking someone anything about anything depends on the context. If it’s your friend while playing video games or a random in a thread called The Great Pronoun Debate sure ask about why they prefer they. Maybe not the first thing when you meet someone - that stuff gets exhausting and they have no way to gauge what kind of reaction you’re going to give them.

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