Yeah I think opinions come down to degree and this is where I fall. Trump was just chaos and that was good. I mean America’s reputation is way worse now than it was in 2016. Politicially and with the international public.
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Trump’s attacks on NATO were probably considered more valuable at the time to Putin than the arms to Ukraine. In hindsight that may well be a different story.
It’s also worth noting that if Putin was confident he could get a second term of Trump, the big asks would come in term #2.
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You can be a puppet without knowing you’re a puppet.
That said there sure seem to be some direct influence on some of the more specific topics like open skies and the original sin of the GOP platform change in 2016.
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You can argue in good faith that it’s not supportive.
Saying it essentially rules out is absurd.
Everyone on all sides agrees that Trump always does what is best for himself.
Putin clearly wants to help Trump win elections and Trump also wanted to do business in Russia/with Russians.
So what would Trump do if he was only looking out for himself? He would try to help Putin in return so that Putin would continue helping him while also trying to maintain plausible deniability.
And that is what he did, /thread.
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There is a class of self-described “liberal” whose only motivation, ironically very much like the MAGA crowd, is to own the libs.
Libs think Russia owns Donald Trump. The Chapo types described above therefore decided there is no Trump/Russia connection. However, there is in fact a massive, obvious and longstanding Trump/Russia connection so they look exceptionally stupid on this issue.
LOL “I’m not reading any of that stuff that refutes my argument” A+ posting
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Hm
Indeed
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Here is a classic example of Trump helping Putin directly relevant to the Ukraine invasion…. with plausible deniability:
Crimea was gone at this point so what is the problem with Trump stating the obvious? Well, the Ukrainians didn’t agree for obvious reasons… but what does it matter what they think about Russia annexing their territory, reality is they are never getting it back?
Well, the US President saying Crimea belongs to Russia makes the Ukranians the assholes for wanting it back. The Ukranians saying they want to take it back is tantamount to saying they will invade Russia…. which would justify a Russian pre-emptive attack on Ukraine.
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All of this analysis is permanently muddied by the undeniable fact that Donnie Dumb Dumb is a moron failson who wants to be a military strongman because that’s an idea he can wrap his tiny brain around (“I tell people what to do and they have to do it. That sounds good!”) So is there some complex nefarious scheme where Donnie Dumb Dumb is secretly colluding with Putin? No, because that’s beyond his limited capabilities. Is he helping Putin all the time because he is a gullible idiot that naturally sucks up to actual thugs? Yes. Is he helping Putin with NATO because he’s too stupid to understand the implications of NATO beyond “America shouldn’t have to pay. I dont like to pay. Me no pay. No pay. I’m a big brain business man!”? Yes.
He’s a simpleton that was born rich and is constantly telling us exactly what ideas are running through his Swiss cheese mush brain.
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Jesus people follow the money. He’s been balls deep in shady Russian cash for over a decade.
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Well, a typical dumbass failson couldn’t tell you what a Crimea is, much less make Putin’s case for seizing it. So how did that happen?
Remember, you have to make your case while denying Putin influenced him.
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Sigh.
Story 1: As I said, Russia could withdraw from this treaty any time they liked. Who cares if the US withdrew from it?
Story 2: A story alleging that Trump wanted to relax sanctions against Russian corporations, but then actually didn’t. OK?
Story 3: The Russians took over a base in Syria. So? Do we want US troops in Syria endlessly? Is it pro-Putin if the US ever withdraws from a proxy war anywhere in the world?
Story 4: Trump denies that Russia helped him in the election. WOW INCREDIBLE DEFINITELY DID NOT EXPECT HIM TO DENY THIS
Story 5: Trump reveals classified information to Russian officials about some ISIS operation. So what? He did that kind of shit all the time.
Story 6:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump said he never questioned Russian leader Vladimir Putin about U.S. intelligence reports that Moscow paid the Taliban to kill American troops in Afghanistan, casting doubt on the reports in an interview.
OK? Who gives a shit?
Story 7: Trump again denies that Russia helped him in the election. So fucking what?
As I suspected, zero of these stories contain any even slightly convincing examples of Trump doing favours for Putin in any capacity, and I was completely wasting my time looking at them.
Is it my turn now? 2017:
2019:
These two actions by themselves are WAY more direct actions against Putin than anything in your links. Trump didn’t have to do this. The administration could have said no. You know how I know? Because right after the invasion of Crimea, during the Obama administration:
https://apnews.com/article/3625313d1b54411ea0753387ccbd36b2
OH SHIT, LOOKS LIKE OBAMA IS IN LEAGUE WITH PUTIN.
For the record, I do think that Trump probably would have liked to go softer on Russia than he actually did. But clearly, Putin did not have any means to turn the screws on him as soon as there was even the slightest breeze blowing the other direction.
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That’s not very deep.
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The articles about “OMG Trump was totally about to relax sanctions on Russia… but then he didn’t and actually strengthened them” and “OMG Trump was about to withdraw from NATO… oh but then actually he didn’t” are amusing because they illustrate things that Trump totally COULD have done but didn’t, along with leveraging military aid to Ukraine for things Russia cared about instead of things Trump cared about.
Was Trump well-disposed towards Putin and inclined to toss him some crumbs here and there? Totally plausible. But was this any kind of priority for him? Very obviously not. He folded like a deckchair on all these issues as soon as he encountered even the slightest resistance. I’ll grant that there is evidence of a fondness for Putin, possibly related to the help his campaign received. But there is no evidence at all that Putin had any means to compel Trump to do anything once Trump got bored or distracted and moved on.
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Corporate lobbying regarding Dodd-Frank was a waste of time and money and the lobbyists clearly had no influence on it because the lobbyists preferred position was for it to not be passed at all. True or False?
Can we skip this and get to the point
Seems like a big deal to me. Exactly how high are you setting the bar here?
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No one is denying Putin was an influence on Trump. Many people were an influence on Trump. That’s different than saying he was led by Putin to do Putins will. A couple of posts up mosdef basically nails it.
Trump was an easily manipulated dumbass. End of.
The point is Putin was the biggest Trump lobbyist on the planet and that undeniably had an influence on Trump’s thinking on every Russia related issue regardless of where he ended up landing on certain issues because of political realities.