Readers vs posters - What are the best interests of the forum?

In a very general sense, we want moderators to look out for the best interests of the forum. On a very basic level, that means ensuring that the forum continues to exist by policing threads to get rid of content that can get someone sued or get the forum shut down.

Beyond that, I believe that some of the differing visions on how the forum should be moderated come down to whether it is more important to cater to people who read the forum vs people who actively post on the forum.

Those who want to prioritize the wants of readers want to organize content neatly, discouraging derails and splitting threads when that happens. They wish to get rid of ā€œbad postingā€, where posting is bad if it is stuff that they think ā€œnormalā€ people donā€™t want to read or shouldnā€™t be encouraged to read (such as conspiracy theories). They often think that the old forum at twoplustwo were egregiously harmed by upper management (Mat and Mason) making it hard to prune bad actors.

Those who want to prioritize the wants of posters see value in the very act of posting. The sharing of words in electronic form is a form of self-expression that should be encouraged (within reason). Just as not every book is for every reader, not every post has a wider audience in mind. Some people want to post whatā€™s on their mind, knowing that not everyone wants to see that stuff, but not wanting to be dogpiled by people hostile to their views.

The battle then becomes about people who want to make posts that people donā€™t want to read. Moderation then becomes an exercise in judgment, determining a balance between how far you let posters go in making other users uncomfortable with their posts. People want order, but too much enforced order becomes stifling and people becomes less willing to share their thoughts if they think that part of their self is just going to be erased while get banned. People want freedom, but too much freedom results in ruining it for everyone, as we see in the real world with people choosing poorly with respect to vaccines and masks in an age of COVID.

We could write a lot of moderation guidelines, but gifted trolls know how to skirt the rules and find angles to avoid technically doing anything wrong while doing things that are very wrong. We could trust in moderators to use their own judgment, but people have a tendency to see bias when decisions go against them. Just look at any sportsball team whose fandom is utterly convinced that the league and referees are biased against their team more than any other team.

I would ask @moderators to think about how they would define the best interests of the forum. Ideally, they would be able to state that definition in a way that makes their moderation decisions seem consistent. Actually, anyone who takes part in arguing about moderation should be able to give their own definition, one that is generalized and does not refer to specific posters or arguments, either directly or indirectly.

Nothing against lurkers, some of my best friends are lurkers (actually one of my very best friends is a lurker), but posters ainec. The back patting about how valuable the posts are here (and going back to 2p2) is silly. Itā€™s people chatting.

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Appeals to ā€œlurkersā€ seem often to function like appeals to ā€œthe silent majorityā€. Itā€™s part of the definition that they will rarely, if ever say what they want, so youā€™ve plenty of leeway to think they very often agree with you.

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Most if not all posters are also readers

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I lurk a lot more than I post, and I have zero problems with heavy handed mods.

Anytime someone thinks a mod is overstepping his authority, they try to build a consensus among cliques of similarly bad posters. Itā€™s childish and sickening.

Every time a moderator takes an action, itā€™s cleaning up something Iā€™d rather not see on this site. I canā€™t support the volunteer mods enough for their time and effort here.

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Every poster starts out as a reader. Moderating a site so that it is actively hostile to new posters only works in the middle of a poker boom where it is raining soup and you are one of the only sites where you can learn how to make a bowl to catch it. The free soup.

UP isnā€™t anywhere near as bad as 22 was back in 2005 and I really donā€™t how the forum drama plays to new posters probably not very well. Worse than the drama is a lack of information about the site and itā€™s standards. When I go to unstuckpolitics.com in an incognito window Iā€™m dropped right in the main list of forums. Not introductory landing page explaining the site, not even a link to the standards we hope our userā€™s to maintain. New userā€™s literally have to pick up the rules from reading the forum.

As far as what those actual standards should be? Pretty simple; no hate speech, no personal attacks, donā€™t be a dick. (If you donā€™t like dick substitute ā€˜ā€¦donā€™t be disruptive.ā€™) Have the mods document any mod actions taken from warnings on up so there is paper trail for the community. Let the community overturn any mod action with a simple vote and if the vote is 2/3 against take the action that was overturned against the mod that did it. So if a 1 day was given and then overturned by a 2/3 vote, the mod that gave out the ban would be banned for a day. Let as many people be mods as want to be but donā€™t let mods vote about overturning other modā€™s actions.

I agree with all what you wrote except this part:

Walking the tight rope as a mod is already difficult enough. Sometimes they will make mistakes. They should not be punished for it. If they make too many mistakes then they should be demodded by referendum.

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The modā€™s lack of accountability has played a part in getting to our current situation. Moderators have the authority to take actions against posters, this authority should have some kind of responsibility to be used correctly. Taking action that 2/3 of the voting membership feels was incorrect should require the mod in question to take responsibility for their action. This will give the mod a better idea of what the community wants from the moderators and take the wind out of the sails of posters who think moderators are above the law. Worst case itā€™s a ban for the length of time it takes the voting process to finish.

You strongly discourage every mod from taking any action at all because at best they break even.

I think elucidating our individual moderations philosophies is a good thing, and something Iā€™ve been planning to do regardless. Users should know what to expect, roughly, and where they stand with us.

In general, Iā€™m hoping not to have to do much moderating. In direct answer to the thread question, I think posters should be the priority. The more you invest in this community, the more I think this community should invest in you. In terms of how that is reflected via modding, that means minimal thread disruptions and bans, if possible. For example Iā€™d actually like more feedback from the community about whether something like ā€œyouā€™re an assholeā€ merits a personal attack ban, whereas - while I think itā€™s worthy of a reminder to chill - Iā€™m not sure it meets that standard. On the other hand, ā€œyouā€™re a dumb British/American/Californian/Shitlib/Shitprog assholeā€ does cross the line for me, since it is personal in its inclusion of poster-specific info and feels much more targeted.

More optimistically, though, Iā€™m hoping a lot of community restoration can be done proactively and positively. @microbet posted recently about knowing many users personally, and I do think that we become more harmonious when we get to know each other as humans rather than keyboard enemies. I think this forum functions best when with heavy participation in the photography/pets/travel/cooking/mental health/coffee-type threads - opportunities for learning about one another and sharing information that is universally-beneficial. Iā€™m personally going to make a more conscious effort to visit (and create) threads of this type - not while neglecting participation in political discussion but hopefully to the benefit of restoring our sense of community.

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By ā€œreaderā€, I donā€™t necessarily mean ā€œlurkerā€. Some people believe this forum should be a source of information. They want to come here, read threads on subjects they care about, adding something only if they think they have information worth sharing. The COVID thread is an example of something people highly prize as a source of information and, in its best form, what these people want this place is to be like. The think moderators are curators whose job is to cull bad posting.

Other people want the forum to function like a chat room. Mods are like bouncers whose job is to remove anyone being too rowdy, but there is some disagreement about how rowdy one can be.

I think some aggrieved poster interpret mod action as personal animus when is really mods trying to act as curators.

Is that a bad thing?

Yes.

Why? If someone is temp banned and 2/3 of the people who give enough of a fuck to vote think it was the wrong action then maybe it isnā€™t in line with community standards? Iā€™d rather a mod have a chance to learn from their mistakes and become a better mod than fire them and lose an asset to the community.

False dichotomy. Itā€™s not a choice of banning the mod or demodding them. They can learn what the community feels is appropriate moderating without being banned.

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In your post above you say mods who make ā€œtoo manyā€ mistakes should be voted on to be demodded by the community. In that situation, none of the mods mistakes have any consequences until the last one so there is not much incentive to improve. I wouldnā€™t expect this to come up that often but having the process in place lets the users know there the mods are accountable for their actions, like everyone else on the board.

How do they know which one will be the last one? If the mistake is egregious enough then the first one will be their last one.

Yeah, thatā€™s not a feature, thatā€™s a bug.

Agree to disagree.

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For my part, I think the best interests of the forum are to keep conflicts to a minimum and keep conversations on track. Like Nononocantsleep Iā€™m hoping to not have to do much moderating to keep those interests protected.

Something I genuinely encourage people to do is flag posts they feel need moderation because mods donā€™t necessarily read every single thread.

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