Long and Tedious Path to the Truth

[anon10396289]

How so?

[LikeClockwork]

@otatop

I named the thread after splitting it out from the moderator nominations thread, it wasn’t actually started by Johnny Truant or titled by him as such.

Thanks. I wasn’t calling out anybody, just stating that the thread title and the content of the thread are wildly dissimilar. Maybe "The Bickering 2: Anti-Vaxin’ & Ghetto Blastin’ " or something of the sort.

[anon10396289]

I don’t care what a mod calls it but don’t move it to that hidden forum. If I’m being slandered the slander and my defense should be in a forum visible to all trust levels.

[MrWookie]

I am obviously not lying about what you said. I quoted you. If you think that your meaning isn’t what your words meant to me, well, OK, anyone can deny anything. If you aren’t an anti-vaxxer, your posting here sure looks like you’d be the #1 UPer with anti vaxxers.

Spreading social cover for people to go unvaxxed without shame is absolutely being done maliciously.

[otatop]

@j8i3h289dn3x7

Ok… And hten later clarified that he should be called vaccine hesitant and not an anti-vaxxer. Or a good faith anti-vaxxer.

Fair enough, I just don’t think it was accurate to call Johnny a liar.

@eyebooger

FFS put a 15 minute timer on this.

That will just move the conversation to another thread. If you don’t want to read this one, don’t.

@SenorKeeed

I don’t care what a mod calls it

Any trust level 3 user can change the title if they wish. I changed yourself and @LikeClockwork to level 3 because the only thing keeping you at level 2 were old suspensions.

Or I guess we can just close the thread. :/

[CanadaMatt3004]

Whoops. Accidentally hit the close button.

Lets try to be fucking civil, eh?

[Formula72]

How about fuck off?

[j8i3h289dn3x7]

@otatop

I change yourself and @LikeClockwork to level 3 because the only thing keeping you at level 2 were suspensions from July.

How long does it normally take to get back to TL3 after a ban?

[NotBruceZ]

Six months

[otatop]

This, so I bumped keeed up 12 days early.

[CanadaMatt3004]

[j8i3h289dn3x7]

@otatop

This, so I bumped keeed up 12 days early.

I was just curious. Thanks.

[NotBruceZ]

Is he going to be permanently tl3?

[otatop]

I didn’t think so because there’s also a separate button to lock the trust level that I didn’t click but worst case they permanently have these features unlocked:

Users at trust level 3 can…

• Recategorize and rename topics
• Access a secure category only visible to users at trust level 3 and higher
• Have all their links followed (we remove automatic nofollow)
• TL3 spam flags cast on TL0 user posts immediately hide the post
• TL3 flags cast on TL0 user posts in sufficient diversity will auto-silence the user and hide all their posts
• Make their own posts wiki (that is, editable by any TL1+ users)
• Daily like and edit limits increased by 2×

[Yuv]

@Trolly

@Yuv

So good thing i’m not nominated.

I nominate @Yuv

i’d ban wookie and smrk if i was mod right now. Not like a 24 hours ban either. And you probably for your previous posts. Would be a shitty 6 months

[anon10387340]

Are you perhaps looking for a campaign manager?

[anon10396289]

@MrWookie

I am obviously not lying about what you said. I quoted you. If you think that your meaning isn’t what your words meant to me, well, OK, anyone can deny anything. If you aren’t an anti-vaxxer, your posting here sure looks like you’d be the #1 UPer with anti vaxxers.

All the paraphrased quotes that you included in your post were things that I never said or argued for. That was the lie. The quotes don’t support those paraphrased quotes: “I’m not against vaccines, I’m against vaccine mandates.” When did I say anything like that? You implied that I said that. That was a lie. Same with the others, other than not wanting to judge people who didn’t get the vaccine. Not judging people who don’t get the vaccine isn’t the same thing as condoning what they did or why they did it.

But originally I was an antivaxxer because you said I drastically overestimated the risk of the vaccine booster. When I pointed out that I said my risk was miniscule, you pivoted. Then you said that the risk of the booster was much smaller than the risk of covid, I pointed out that the magnitude of the absolute risks of each choice is meaningless in this framework. So now you’re pivoting to a third reason I’m an antivaxxer, because I “sound” like one. I make the same arguments as an antivaxxer. Well, none of the quotes of mine you post are in any way anti vaccine in any way. None.

This is the entirety of the first quote you post, with the section you posted bolded:

@anon10396289

Right, but who’s the ones being intolerant here? People where I live don’t gaf if New York City locks down or who gets vaccinated or wears masks. The reverse isn’t true though. Of course, it’s true that the unvaccinated and un-locked down’s choices effect others, but that’s becoming less and less true with the effectiveness and availability of vaccines and boosters. And I’m not saying there’s nothing to get mad about, but it simply isn’t productive. And it ignores the increasing unpopularity of restrictions. I think we’re just going to end up in the realm of you make your own personal choices on vaccination, masks, isolation, whatever, and you take your chances. This isn’t ever going to go away, it increasingly seems like everyone’s going to get it, vaccination or not. Which obviously doesn’t mean that vaccines don’t work, they do, but breakthrough cases are obviously not rare (believe me, I know).

This post is not antivaccine in any way, shape or form. It’s absurd to frame it as such. Vaccines work, people should get them, but at this point vaccines aren’t going to stop the virus. It’s endemic. It’s an analysis of the political reality we face right now, not a statement on vaccines and their effectiveness.

Next section, your excerpted fragment bolded again:

@anon10396289

OK, but wave after wave is going to happen regardless, right? You lock down now you’ll get it later seems to be the rule. And then mostly the unvaccinated die even though probably vaccinated can spread at least a few of these variants. And then we’re still talking about these two weeks to slow the spread tactics two years on, at some point we just have to say, OK, what are our actual public health goals here? Because to me, taking countermeasures to merely delay an inevitable wave makes very little sense at this stage of the pandemic. Although that could change if Omicron or some subsequent variant causes significant mortality in children, then you’d want to do that to try to figure out how to get them vaccinated.

Honestly I don’t even understand how the fragment you quoted could be interpreted as anti-vaccine. I’m just saying waves are going to happen no matter if a community is vaccinated or not, but people should get vaccinated because those waves will be far less deadly than if they’re not.

Next:

@anon10396289

But why do we say fuck the unvaccinated?!? It’s one thing when you could plausibly blame the continued existence of the pandemic on the unvaccinated. Now that the “pandemic of the unvaccinated” ship has well and truly sailed, I don’t know. Do you get furious at strangers who don’t wear seat belts and motorcycle helmets?

Oh damn you quoted a whole post! Again, not in any way anti-vaccine. I’m saying that this thing is endemic, everyone is going to get it, and you better get vaccinated because you’re going to be much better protected than if you’re not vaccinated. Obvious stuff.

and then:

@anon10396289

But then there’s different kinds of unvaccinated. Someone who got the virus and recovered, are they the same thing as someone who never got it and never got vaccinated? I don’t think there’s terribly good evidence for what sort of protection infection gives vs. vaccine, so I could see that as a reasonable choice to not get vaccinated. Similarly, I got vaccinated in March and got a breakthrough case in August. I haven’t gotten a booster and probably won’t, at least for a while. Because again, I don’t think there is good evidence that a booster is indicated in that situation. So when do I make the transition from Fully Vaccinated Good Boy to Subhuman Unboosted Piece of Shit?

So for me, it’s much better to just not judge people for their vaccination status at all. In any case, it doesn’t change a thing if you’re mad at the unvaccinated or not, so why bother. And I’ve convinced three or four people to get vaccinated with reason and kindness, and I doubt that an attitude of GET VACCINATED YOU PIECE OF SHIT would have been as effective.

Is being adamantly pro-vaccine while not making judgements about what sort of people are unvaccinated actually antivaxx? Why? Why do I have to express my two minute hate against the unvaccinated in order to be pro-vaccine? What does that accomplish? I know many people I work with who haven’t taken the vaccine and won’t. I obviously think they’re wrong but I actually know them. Their reasons are bad but sincere. I go to work with them every day and they aren’t bad people and they don’t deserve to die or get covid or whatever. I could go around and yell at them and call them fucking morons but that would just get me fired. What does it accomplish other than imbue me with righteous anger? That and a buck fifty will get me on the bus.

[MrWookie]

Not sure why I am prohibited from making a few modest logical leaps.

“I don’t judge people who are unvaccinated for any reason” - > “You shouldn’t judge them either” - > “No one should judge them” - > “Vaccine mandates are unethical.”

If you indeed support both vaccines and vaccine mandates, I am not sure how you rectify the idea that you think unvaccinated people can and should face material consequences for not being vaccinated while simultaneously thinking that you are not passing judgment on them.

Your rebuttal reads as if you are aghast that I read and assess the implications of the totality of your words rather than only considering each statement in a vacuum without regard for what else is implied. It is pointless sophistry at this point.

Oh, and yes, casting the decision to get vaccinated as something that only impacts oneself, as wearing a helmet does, is anti vaxx. Vaccination isn’t just personal responsibility. It’s social responsibility. You are giving explicit permission for those who don’t wish to get vaccinated to have only the moral culpability of harming themselves, when the decision to not get vaccinated not only harms themselves but those around them, and, indeed, the whole world.

[smrk4]

You don’t have to hate the unvaxxed, and the utility of yelling at them is debatable, but it’s not clear to me that you even think it’s morally wrong for a person to refuse to get vaccinated (ignoring complicating factors like being immunocompromised), which of course it is. And when you talk about inevitable waves of infection and JAQ about infection-induced immunity being superior to vaccines – and you of course know this – you are talking about things which anti-vaxxers often raise in their rationalizations for not getting vaccinated. Like come on.

[Trolly]

Compromise: let’s just say he’s a “sometimes-vaxxer” instead of an “anti-vaxxer”