It's Worms All the Way Down: The Ivermectin Thread

I think you guys are seriously underestimating how mathematically illiterate most people (including some doctors!) are…

Studies have shown that children with larger feet on average perform better on math tests. This statement is undoubtedly true and those disingenuous enough to make the case that there is a correlation between shoe size and and math skills are obviously correct and couldn’t be proven wrong. A significant portion of the population would never stop to consider that kids with larger feet tend to be older with more math training. Some will be doctors (I can give a personal example where a friend of mine’s doctor made an egregious error interpreting a study is his own field of expertise!)

However, scientists are much less likely to make such an error as would be a body of doctors. Once a consensus among professionals is reached, it’s kind of foolish to go against it and that’s all anyone needs to know imo

Universal health care would help but they are also trying to own the libs.

I think the general profit motive in healthcare has created distrust of health care industry. There have been plenty of conspiracy theories that companies are holding back cures for illnesses and cancer.

1 Like

Ya think?

I don’t doubt that’s true for some people but I also don’t doubt that others are taking this out of desperation. You’ve said it yourself. Hospitals are packed to the gills and new patients have nowhere else to go.

For-profit health care is inherently untrustworthy because it by definition puts profits ahead of people. It creates a breeding ground for conspiracy theories and overall reduces the health of anybody under it.

EDIT: Kep beat me to it

https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/articles/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients.pdf

I have no idea how good/bad this research is because I’m much too lazy to do that kind of analysis without being paid… but I sincerely hope that ivermectin sterilizes many of the men who take it for life (definitely not what the study showed).

do you mean joe rogan the character on the “Joe Rogan Experience” podcast or Joe Rogan the actor who plays that character by the same name?

2 Likes

We simply cannot accept a do no harm standard. Efforts and resources put towards the wrong treatment have a real opportunity cost.

1 Like

I was thinking of hoarding some and trying to flip it on ebay.

2 Likes

Ivermectin as a freeroll backup sounds reasonable. Where’s the best place to get it?

Petsmart?

1 Like

apologies if already posted

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/07/ohio-judge-reverses-ivermectin-order/

Ohio judge reverses colleague’s decision on covid patient’s ivermectin treatment: ‘Judges are not doctors’

Last month, an Ohio judge ordered a hospital to treat covid-19 patient Jeffrey Smith with ivermectin after his wife sued, alleging that the facility refused to give her husband the drug, despite him having a doctor’s prescription.

Since mid-July, Smith has been in West Chester Hospital’s intensive care unit, battling a severe case of covid, according to court records. Ivermectin — a deworming drug that some people are using to prevent or treat covid, despite several public health agencies advising against it — was Smith’s last shot at survival, his wife and guardian, Julie Smith, argued.

But on Monday, after Smith’s wife and the doctor who prescribed him the ivermectin failed to provide “convincing evidence” at a court hearing to show that the drug could significantly improve his condition, a different judge reversed course. Butler County Judge Michael A. Oster Jr. ordered the hospital to cease administering Smith, 51, the unproven treatment, arguing that “judges are not doctors or nurses.”

“Based on the current evidence, ivermectin is not effective as a treatment for COVID-19. … Even Plaintiff’s own doctor could not say [that] continued use of ivermectin would benefit [Jeffrey] Smith,” Oster wrote in an order filed on Monday.

Oster added: “After considering all of the evidence presented in this case, there can be no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19.”

The judge’s reversal is the latest attempt by a government official to steer people away from using the medicine — long used to kill parasites in animals and humans — as a treatment for the coronavirus. In recent months, the Food and Drug Administration and other public health agencies have urged people to refrain from taking the unproven treatment, warning it could be “dangerous” and potentially fatal.

“You are not a horse,” the Food and Drug Administration tweeted last month. “You are not a cow. Seriously, y’all. Stop it.”

4 Likes

fyi the other decision was backed by a judge pretending to be a doctor with the argument of ‘what’s the harm?’ That shockingly did not go over well in the medical community.

1 Like

Exactly. I have a friend who is now all-in on the lab leak theory, and the reason for that is that what he sees is an initial totally unjustified certainty from the media establishment, with scorn and talk of “misinformation” and “racism”, followed by a walking back later. So far I agree with him. The bit where I disagree is the heuristic he has about this, which basically says that to force the media to walk a position back, there must be really good evidence for the alternative position. Because he’s totally out of his depth trying to understand the technical evidence, he has to use some heuristic to figure out who is correct. I really believe that if the media had not rushed to judgement, he’d be a lot more balanced in his judgement of what is more likely now.

I think the media used to have the power to, by taking a position, close down debate on issues that are ALREADY controversial, and that this power is now totally gone, but the media keep trying to do it anyway. This is just the “don’t do drugs, kids” DARE approach all over again: exaggerate dangers and tell tales of the fearsome fates awaiting those who won’t listen to their betters, with the same “ends justify the means” rationalization and the same result of being counterproductive if anything.

Neigh.

Yeah. Basically my point here is that people are uncomfortable with the disconnect between the social costs of people substituting ivermectin for vaccination, which is a really really bad problem, and the reality that people taking ivermectin as directed are not doing themselves any harm and there’s a small chance it may be helping them. To cope with this tension, people construct a reality in which it’s certain that ivermectin doesn’t work and that people are taking animal dewormer and shitting their intestines out by the thousands, thus telling themselves the much more comfortable story that the people responsible for this social problem are a) extremely stupid and reckless people and b) experiencing personal consequences. It’s the same thing that happens when people concerned about the very real human suffering caused by recreational drugs convince themselves that smoking a reefer will make you psychotic, and it’s just as transparently bullshit to people outside of this project of reifying a narrative.

6 Likes

Jesus fucking Christ I cannot imagine a stupider hill to die on than “the horse paste people are slightly less stupid than you think.”

14 Likes

If people are taking horse paste in lieu of getting a vaccine, it’s indirectly doing them harm in the same way faith healers and other cranks harm people.

4 Likes

This literally caused me to facepalm. That’s not how this works.

1 Like

Serious side effects are generally only seen in people with active parasite infections, for example from Wiki:

Ivermectin is considered relatively free of toxicity in standard doses, that is, around 300 µg/kg. Based on the data drug safety sheet for ivermectin (New Drug Application Identifier: 50-742/S-022), side effects are uncommon. However, serious adverse events following ivermectin treatment are more common in people with very high burdens of larval Loa loa worms in their blood.

Of course any drug, or any substance for that matter, can cause adverse reactions, but the adverse reaction rate for ivermectin is very low and the idea that this, in itself, justifies a public health campaign against taking it is ludicrous. Acetaminophen toxicity causes unintentional hospitalizations and deaths every single day in the US and you can buy that at the grocery store.

Again, not how it works. You’re completely wrong. You cannot structure an argument like this in medicine.

2 Likes

The only thing funny out of this is how I was adamantly told by MB how CV wasn’t defending ivermectin.

5 Likes

This is exactly what I’m talking about in the post above. I don’t think ivermectin works for COVID and I don’t support its use. But because I won’t engage in this collective project to pretend that using it is super dangerous, these statements are judged suspicious.

I’m not “structuring an argument” like anything because I’m not making one. I’m just saying things which are factual.

1 Like