I understand that you oblige to Warren’s guillotining. Are you in favor of the gas chamber if Warren sees it suitable for the folks or do you draw the line between head chopping and gassing?
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The biggest difference between CP and say, that thread here and a very important part of it is the power imbalance. If that draft went through, people would rail against the evils Zuckerburg, Trump, Adelson etc have done. These are people very unlikely to face any repercussions in their life beyond maybe some people saying mean things about them. These are people who have made institutions in the world worse. They have hurt people. Their actions have facilitated genocide, put kids in cages, made others starve and so many other injustices I really don’t have the time to list them. And again, these are people with more millions than my post will have characters.
Chiefs planet wants the poor black family on SNAP to not receive food stamps. They want the poor immigrant to go back to their country in the midst of civil war due to CIA meddling. This really isnt the same.
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Personally, I was not in any sort of leadership or mod position there. And posts with this kind of rhetoric were almost never tolerated by mods or the community.
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A lot of that stuff was drive by, and the entire community ripped them a new one. It was clear where we stood and how we felt. Now the content I can’t stand for is coming from inside the house, and my side is tolerating it if not supporting it. Now my situation becomes murky.
To put it in the Charlottesville terms, you know how we’re always saying that everyone who marched with the right wingers there is complicit in the racism because it’s not like you accidentally march with people with swastikas without realizing what you’re supporting? Well, that same concept applies here.
Just like we judge the people who stayed and marched regardless of whether they claim they aren’t white supremacists, we are subject to being judged for staying and hanging with people posting satirical death lists or cranking out violent rhetoric. Once it becomes clear this is a forum and community that at best tolerate that and at worst support it, those of us who don’t want to associate with that have to leave.
Hence why I’m pushing back in it so hard. I hate seeing this place become that, and I don’t really want to just leave.
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We currently aren’t, actually. But that’s a totally different issue.
To be fair, I was responding to someone who asked if I would get in trouble for posting on chiefsplanet.
Counter point: somehow we keep having this same discussion every few weeks because of some new issue. We still haven’t even had a vote on Rule #7, and it’s unlikely there would be enough support to pass it if we did.
Also, some of the people on the other side of this are whatabouting with the horrors of the Trump administration, CP, Charlottesville white supremacists, etc. Is the insinuation that our moral responsibility is to just be less bad and less violent than our opponents?
Like, “Oh my God, the other side are such absolute monsters. It’s a non stop horror show. It’s morally indefensible, and the things they are doing are completely and utterly abhorrent. Also, you can’t criticize me for my violent rhetoric because… I’m not as bad as them.”
I just reject that justification.
What’s your stance on milkshaking Nazis?
I’ve been asked that repeatedly in these kinds of discussions. I don’t have a problem with it, generally speaking.
Deciding who is morally superior, fascists or anti-fascists, can’t be decided by adding up the violent incidents. Like the guy who attacked the immigration detention center was by no means morally the same as the guy who ran people over in Charlottesville.
How in the world is it manipulative? Who am I manipulating and in what way?
I wish people would get this worked up about domestic violence that’s actually occurring everyday to women and children rather than the imaginary guillotining of powerful billionares who wouldn’t give a shit about one of their products killing any one of us.
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So is our base goal on the left, in the resistance, as people who oppose fascism, as Unstuckers, etc, just to be morally superior? There’s not some higher moral standard we should strive to live up to?
Cause if all you think we need to do is be morally superior, shit, that path leads to some very dark places.
I get pretty worked up over a lot of horrible things that happen in the world. I vote accordingly, and do some volunteering to try to make an impact beyond my vote. Not enough volunteering, but some. I also try to speak up in various ways in my day to day life when people say stuff that’s unacceptable.
But I don’t need to start a thread about it on here or argue about it, because (I assume) we all agree on that and nobody is putting this community in a bad light in that regard as far as I know.
So I am the one who thinks there is too much sensitivity by people across the spectrum but am wrong because you like to make fun of overly sensitive right wingers while being overly sensitive yourself? I just want to make sure I have this hypocrisy locked in correctly.
I don’t know what you mean by this.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with pacifism, I’m pretty close to a pacifist, but are you saying you’re 100% pacifist? If not, then the discussion of what motivates violence is certainly important. Also, lots of violence is advocated for where it’s completely uncontroversial. There are posters on this board who think that crossing the border should be a crime, drugs should be illegal and supported the invasion of Iraq.
I understand Johnny’s point (I think) about how this kind of talk, even joking, can have negative repercussions, but that it’s unseemly to even discuss revolution? Well, 100% pacifism then. I don’t want to see anyone speculate about whether it’s appropriate to launch cruise missiles into Syria.
It really does sound here like you think that (imagined) violence against Nazis is as bad as the violence of the Nazis (which FWIW is real).
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If you think that these arguments have given me an ego boost, you haven’t been paying attention. There have been way more posts deriding my intelligence or character than supporting me, even as there are probably more people who have posted that they like me and want me to stay than have derided me. Never the less they’re not posting the positive stuff repeatedly (nor should they), so I’m spending far more time reading stuff about how I’m a manipulative dictatorial Mason-like power hungry snowflake than about how I should stay.
If your read on me from my track record on 2p2 → Exiled → UP is that I’m doing this to manipulate people into saying nice things about me, then I don’t know what to tell you. When I’m being overly dramatic in other people’s opinions, it’s almost always because I care about an issue and feel strongly about it and wish to express it passionately and win the discussion. I routinely make posts that are probably way too long because I want to go point-by-point through a discussion. I care too much about politics and spend too much time on this forum for my own good.
If I wanted to be the most liked poster who everyone said nice things about all the time, I probably wouldn’t have engaged in extremely long and unpopular arguments with nunnehi. If I wanted to run the show and become a Mason-like dictator, I wouldn’t have stepped back and encouraged a community-oriented process in the move from Exiled → UP.
As for effecting change being the ultimate goal, like, duh? Isn’t that the fucking point? In this regard, sure, but really out in the world? The fact that you’re insulting me for my ultimate goal with political discussions being to effect change is just amazing.
I would add this whole discussion might have been different if not for all the previous pearl clutching here. I never saw the posts in question but saw all the previous ones so I assumed it is just more of the same nonsense.
Maybe people need to be more honest about what they are going to quit over OR just quit.
I would be fine and done with all this if I thought people were honestly going to reflect on what upsets them in the future. But I am pretty convinced we will have another flip out for something fairly innocuous in the future.
Not at all. I strongly believe that we should hold ourselves to a much higher standard. We’re the good guys, we should act like it.
I also believe that violent rhetoric is counter productive for our causes, so that makes it that much more annoying to me to see it proliferate on the left in any form or fashion.
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