That’s why there’s a mandate for Obamacare…
considering nixon won 49 of 50 states in 1972 you can make the case voters should’ve picked Muskie anyway.
There’s no substance required here beyond “I don’t believe your claims of authority and I doubt anyone else does, either”. If that’s all it takes to dismiss you completely, that’s a problem for you, not for me.
Meh. McGovern was by all accounts a decent human being, but ran the most brain-dead campaign possible - although you might argue for Goldwater. I don’t see any of the current dem probables doing that poorly. We’ll see…
MM MD
I think you could make a strong case that the answer Trump gave that you quoted was actually more coherent than Biden’s answer and even less bad on content. What did Trump say? He basically gave a rambling version of: I’m very smart, my uncle taught me about nuclear stuff and it’s dangerous, and the deal with Iran was a bad deal for us.
Biden gave a rambling and incoherent version of: there are institutional problems and we should fix them but black parents aren’t doing a good enough job and they should have social workers come into their homes to teach them how to parent better, and we should start kids in school two years earlier.
Because it doesn’t. It provides access to healthcare to everyone.
Not really. It was a weak mandate even before the Trump administration stopped enforcing it.
Subsidies yes, although the line of where people “can’t afford it” is debatable… Enforces low prices? I’m going to have to disagree with that.
Right, but when you say “all you’re really doing” you’re greatly distorting what is being done there.
So let’s say you miss the enrollment window and a month later you find out you have cancer. Guess what? Too bad. Like, yeah, they have to treat you and try to keep you alive, but you’re on the hook for the expenses until you go bankrupt… and open enrollment is like 10 months away, at which point you can then get covered… but you’ll already be bankrupt and massively in debt, and your life will be financially ruined if you survive your cancer.
As it pertains to Biden, I guess there are two questions (and I’m trying to find this full clip from the debate):
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How quickly can people get “automatically” enrolled when they get a serious illness?
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What counts as a serious illness?
Assuming the answer to one is very quickly and the answer to number two is reasonable, why the fuck would anyone buy health insurance? Now the cost per capita of Medicare is going to skyrocket because it’s only sick people and old people who are getting it. Now, you could argue that this doesn’t matter because that cost would be spread out across all taxpayers, but, congratulations, you just took on a cost that’s probably even higher than Bernie’s Medicare for All plan. Why? Well, you just axed a ton of preventative care and routine care, but you’re still covering all the serious illnesses. So you’ve managed to create a system that costs everyone more, covers less, and leads to way worse health outcomes (and shorter lifespans).
If the answer to one is slowly and/or the answer to number two is like “cancer only,” then I guess you haven’t created perverse incentives that will destroy the system, but you’ve also created a system where everyone who falls through the cracks gets fucked and there’s even MORE confusion about healthcare than there is now.
So either way, it seems like this Biden idea sucks.
But, hey, “You’ll get automatic free coverage if you get cancer on my plan but you don’t have to have big bad expensive Medicare for All,” sounds great to people who don’t think about it or understand it.
This is why the best way to sell Medicare for All is like, “If your family makes less than $150,000 a year, you’ll save money. You’ll never have another copay, referral, argument with your insurance company, or question over what’s covered. Every doctor will have to take it because it’ll be the base insurance provider of every American. So you’ll get to keep all your doctors and specialists, save money and save hassle. I’ve never met an American who loves their insurance company, so I won’t be losing any sleep over cutting them out of the process to save people from being treated like commodities instead of human beings. If you’re making millions of dollars, you’ll pay more. But the good news for you is, you’ll still be a rich person in America, so life’s still pretty good.”
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I found the transcript @PabloHoney and @catfacemeowmers. I’m with Castro factually here on what was said, and I’m with Castro that Biden’s plan sucks. I bolded the important parts.
BIDEN: Fifteen seconds. Look, everybody says we want an option. The option I’m proposing is Medicare for all – Medicare for choice. If you want Medicare, if you lose the job from your insurance – from your employer, you automatically can buy into this. You don’t have – no pre-existing condition can stop you from buying in. You get covered, period.
And if you notice, nobody’s yet said how much it’s going to cost the taxpayer. I hear this large savings, the president thinks – my friend from Vermont thinks that the employer’s going to give you back if you negotiated as a union all these years, got a cut in wages because you got insurance. They’re going to give back that money to the employee?
SANDERS: As a matter of fact, they will in our bill.
BIDEN: Well, let me tell you something. For a socialist, you’ve got – for a socialist, you’ve got a lot more confidence in corporate America than I do.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Sanders?
SANDERS: OK, one minute, George?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Go ahead.
SANDERS: All right. Two points. You got to defend the fact that today not only do we have 87 million people uninsured and underinsured, you got to defend the fact that 500,000 Americans are going bankrupt. You know why they’re going bankrupt? Because they suffered a terrible disease – cancer or heart disease.
Under my legislation, people will not go into financial ruin because they suffered with a diagnosis of cancer. And our program is the only one that does that.
BIDEN: I know a lot about cancer, let me tell you something. It’s personal to me. Let me tell you something. Every single person who is diagnosed with cancer or any other disease can automatically become part of this plan. They will not go bankrupt because of that. They will not go bankrupt because of that. They can join immediately.
And we’re talking four, six, eight, ten years, depending on who you talk about, before we get to Medicare for all. Come on. I’ve been there. You’ve been there. You know what it’s like. People need help now, hope now, and do something now.
(APPLAUSE)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Congressman O’Rourke?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Thank you. Listen, I’m grateful that we all agree about the urgency of this challenge and the fact that Donald Trump is undermining the limited protections that we have right now.
But I also think we’re being offered a false choice between those who propose an all-or-nothing gambit, forcing tens of millions off of insurance that they like, that works for them, to force them onto Medicare, and others who want to, as the vice president does, incrementally improve what we have, which will still leave many, maybe millions uninsured and uncared for.
In a state like Texas, where the largest provider of mental health care services is the county jail system, we’ve got to do better. In my proposal, Medicare for America, says everyone who’s uninsured will be enrolled in Medicare. Everyone who’s insufficiently insured, cannot afford it, can move over to Medicare. And those, like members of unions who’ve fought for the health care plans that work for them and their families, are able to keep them. This is the best possible path forward.
BIDEN: You just described my plan (ph).
STEPHANOPOULOS: This is – health care is the top issue for everyone in the country. I want to make sure everyone gets one minute to respond. So, Secretary Castr, Andrew Yang, and then Senator Booker, you will get a minute.
CASTRO: Thank you. And, you know, I also want to recognize the work that Bernie has done on this. And, of course, we owe a debt of gratitude to President Barack Obama. Of course, I also worked for President Obama, Vice President Biden, and I know that the problem with your plan is that it leaves 10 million people uncovered.
Now, on the last debate stage in Detroit, you said that wasn’t true, when Senator Harris brought that up. There was a fact check of that, and they said that was true.
You know, I grew up with a grandmother who had type 2 diabetes, and I watched her condition get worse and worse. But that whole time, she had Medicare. I want every single American family to have a strong Medicare plan available.
If they choose to hold on to strong, solid private health insurance, I believe they should be able to do. But the difference between what I support and what you support, Vice President Biden, is that you require them to opt in and I would not require them to opt in. They would automatically be enrolled. They wouldn’t have a buy in.
That’s a big difference, because Barack Obama’s vision was not to leave 10 million people uncovered. He wanted every single person in this country covered. My plan would do that. Your plan would not.
BIDEN: They do not have to buy in. They do not have to buy in.
CASTRO: You just said that. You just said that two minutes ago. You just two minutes ago that they would have to buy in.
BIDEN: Do not have to buy in if you can’t afford it.
CASTRO: You said they would have to buy in.
BIDEN: Your grandmother would not have to buy in. If she qualifies for Medicaid, she would automatically be enrolled.
CASTRO: Are you forgetting what you said two minutes ago? Are you forgetting already what you said just two minutes ago? I mean, I can’t believe that you said two minutes ago that they had to buy in and now you’re saying they don’t have to buy in. You’re forgetting that.
BIDEN: I said anyone like your grandmother who has no money.
CASTRO: I mean, look, look, we need a health care system…
BIDEN: She – you’re automatically enrolled.
CASTRO: It automatically enrolls people regardless of whether they choose to opt in or not. If you lose your job, for instance, his health care plan would not automatically enroll you. You would have to opt in. My health care plan would. That’s a big difference. I’m fulfilling the legacy of Barack Obama, and you’re not.
BIDEN: That’ll be a surprise to him.
What Biden is essentially proposing is to allow people an exception to open enrollment if they have a serious illness, which is a disastrously bad idea from a policy perspective. And his claim (after the attack, the initial attack WAS accurate from Castro) that you will be automatically enrolled if you have a serious illness seems baseless.
Like how’s that going to work, exactly? You’re obviously going to have to fill something out, send some form in, you’re going to have to do something to opt in and you’re going to have to pay the premiums if you’re not poor…
So Biden says you’ll be able to buy in, then Biden claims you won’t have to buy in, Castro attacks him for forgetting that he said you have to buy in, Biden then says his plan will automatically enroll you but doesn’t give details on how.
Meanwhile, on the website Biden’s plan does “automatically” enroll people by enrolling them onto the public option when they interact with public schools or SNAP. His plan says nothing about expanding open enrollment periods or changing that, which means that based on what he has publicly posted about his plan, someone who is above the threshold for free coverage or someone who is poor enough but does not interact with one of the automatic enrollment triggers WILL fall through the cracks if they don’t enroll during open enrollment and WILL be on the hook for the cost of medical care until they can get enrolled.
Thus, the most fair way to interpret his statement last night is that he would create an exception to enrollment periods for those diagnosed with a serious illness… Which basically makes a mockery of the whole thing because why the fuck would anyone pay to get insurance then?
Seriously cuse enough with the Republican talking points. Castro got 4 Pinocchios and that’s that.
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That wasn’t the contention ever.
That was the contention.
“Not going bankrupt” is not the same thing as “not having to buy in”.
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I don’t want to argue too hard since I mostly agree with your points, just a few things:
I mean sure, its still a mandate though, you’re either getting enrolled or paying a penalty. If someone willingly prefers to pay a penalty and will suffer the consequences of not having insurance its hard to see that as a systemic humanitarian catastrophe when they can’t afford a procedure.
It very clearly sets prices lower for people depending on income, and mandates the quality of coverage so not sure what your issue is here.
The vast majority of people probably aren’t approaching this through a +EV/-EV lense, but even if they are there would be a mandate.
Yeah this argument was used against Obamacare in 2008, but it just didn’t happen.
I mean I support M4A for many of the reasons you mentioned, but its frustrating to see how easily Obamacare gets thrown under the bus and even has democrats using Republican arguments in 2008 against it in 2019.
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Holy shit you’re a waste of time.
Read the fucking quotes.
And you have done nothing to prove Castro’s contention wrong. As catface pointed out, “not going bankrupt” is different from not having to buy in.
In addition, he did not give any detail on any mechanism to protect people from going bankrupt, nor has his plan offered any idea before last night on the debate stage to offer an enrollment exception.
He was making up policy on the fly off the top of his addled mind because he realized his plan had a big weakness. Castro caught him, and went for the KO punch, and is being ripped to shreds for it because people didn’t like him making Biden look bad.
Jesus Christ dude… Biden said both of those things. It’s why Castro ended up looking like an asshole. If he had stuck to saying Bidencare sucks he would’ve been fine.
And like I said way up itt no candidate has fully fleshed out plans. They all allude to stuff, but it’s not like stuff the BLS or other governmental agencies can analyze in any meaningful way until one of them is elected President and actually their are drafts etched out like Obamacare.
Fair enough.
To be clear, you’re not currently paying a penalty for that. You were originally under Obamacare. However, I called it weak because the penalty was low enough to be a lot cheaper than actually getting insurance - thus it wasn’t really a strong mandate.
I mean, they’re still legally required to be treated for a serious illness. So John Q. Taxpayer is paying the financial penalties for their decision to go uninsured, as they’re spread across the system and baked into healthcare costs. The person who made the choice is paying the health consequences of not getting preventative coverage.
Well, sort of. It gives them a subsidy to lower their prices. It doesn’t put in place price controls on medical care as far as I know/understand it, and if there are any they’re laughably ineffective as we’re always seeing stories in the news about how absurdly expensive care is.
I disagree. If they know there are no serious consequences for not getting insurance, and they know the fine from the mandate is lower, over time very few people will choose to buy insurance and the number of uninsured people will go up significantly. People don’t have to do an actual EV calculation to realize that they can get away with not paying for health insurance until they need it.
Don’t judge the validity of my argument from the left of Biden’s position to the bullshit argument from the right of the ACA’s position just because they are of similar content. Biden’s plan WOULD absolutely create that problem by creating an enrollment exception for a serious illness. If you’re uninsured under the ACA, and you find out you have cancer, you’re on your own until the next enrollment period. There’s not an exception. The hospital has to give you care, but you’ll be the one going bankrupt.
So making that change as Biden described would create that problem.
This is kind of a ridiculous line of attack on my argument. Let’s be really clear here:
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The ACA is better than what we had before it.
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The ACA is a free market solution that was watered down from what Obamacare was originally supposed to be (with a public option).
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The ACA needs to be improved upon both morally and in the interest of saving the country money on healthcare expenses.
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Biden’s changes would increase the cost of providing coverage under ACA+Bidencare significantly as opposed to the current ACA, and is a far worse plan than what Castro was calling for, which is a worse plan than what Bernie and Liz are calling for.
You’re now ignoring the order of what Biden said, and hitting me with “Jesus Chrsit dude” as if I’m the one conflating the facts.
In order:
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Biden says people will be able to buy in.
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Biden says people with cancer or other diseases can automatically become part of the plan and will not go bankrupt, that they can join immediately.
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Castro says Biden would require them to opt in and he would not require them to opt in. Castro says his plan would not have a buy in.
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Biden says they would not have to buy in.
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Castro says Biden just said they would have to buy in two minutes ago.
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Biden now says they won’t have to buy in if they can’t afford it.
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Castro says “You just said they would have to buy in.”
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Biden says poor people would be automatically enrolled. (This also means people who can afford it but do not opt in will have to buy in when they get sick, aka there WILL be a buy in.)
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Castro again hammers home that Biden said two minutes ago that people would have to buy in, which HE DID SAY.
Okay, but the stuff Biden is making up on the fly on the debate stage when he gets caught in a bad position on his original plan is absurd from a policy standpoint and will cost the nation tons of money… It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the healthcare economy and insurance systems in this country.
And on the original point, no matter how many times you try to twist it, the transcript is clear on what was said, and Castro was correct about what was said. Just because Biden changed/clarified his stance in the middle of the attack does not make the attack inaccurate. It makes Biden a buffoon.
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Because you are either being obtuse or completely dishonest. You even provided the transcripts that shows Biden articulated people weren’t going to be bankrupt before and after Castro started his attack. You’re the one twisting things because you have formulated and articulated that landing these epic style takedowns in a debate is some genius maneuver through out the past few years lol. The shit blew up in Castro’s face because it wasn’t Joe clarifying his stance it was because what Castro said wasn’t accurate (that Joe forgot what he said).
What don’t you understand about the difference between having to buy in and going bankrupt? Castro said that under Biden’s plan, people would have to buy in, WHICH THEY WOULD. Biden saying people wouldn’t go bankrupt has nothing to do with that.
CASTRO: But the difference between what I support and what you support, Vice President Biden, is that you require them to opt in and I would not require them to opt in. They would automatically be enrolled. They wouldn’t have a buy in.
That’s a big difference, because Barack Obama’s vision was not to leave 10 million people uncovered. He wanted every single person in this country covered. My plan would do that. Your plan would not.
BIDEN: They do not have to buy in. They do not have to buy in.
CASTRO: You just said that. You just said that two minutes ago. You just two minutes ago that they would have to buy in.
Biden said two minutes prior that they would have to buy in. Period. Castro was accurate.
Two minutes prior, Biden said, “If you want Medicare, if you lose the job from your insurance – from your employer, you automatically can buy into this. You don’t have – no pre-existing condition can stop you from buying in.”
He also said something about not going bankrupt, but obviously one can be forced to buy in and not go bankrupt. Castro’s attack was accurate. Stop making shit up PabloHoney.
I’m done with you lying now.