No one wants to burn it down and that is a facile way to look at the views most of us have. Most of us want to pass progressive policy through the normal channels. That is currently impossible not because of the GOP but becuase the Dem party is completely infested with billionaire class/corporate stooges. Until that changes it is impossible to accomplish anything.
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https://twitter.com/daveanthony/status/1291846756682985472
https://twitter.com/guillotineshout/status/1291781661391122433
Jesus Christ Chuck.
From the Chicago Tribune
Trump said he may issue executive orders on home evictions, student loan debt and allowing states to repurpose COVID relief funding into their unemployment insurance programs. He also said he’ll likely issue an executive order to defer collection of Social Security payroll taxes, an idea that has less support among his Republican allies.
Without looking it up, my understanding is the COVID money to the states is less than $30b and is being used for other things. So people aren’t going to get more than a token bump.
Pelosi declared the talks all but dead until Meadows and Mnuchin give ground. “I’ve told them ‘come back when you are ready to give us a higher number,’” she said.
So she didn’t cave and opted for shooting hostages. We’ll see how that goes.
You’re saying this when he’s doing (not doing) this dictator EO. If you want to cede that he’s dictator until November, I guess that’s fine for you. It’s not for me. And again, I don’t want anything that kills more people or that delays anything leading to more loss of life and homelessness. I would be shocked if any skinny deal would have liability protection in it. Again, this is not an all or nothing situation, we are now 3 weeks out from irreparable harm.
What’s the number you need for Trump’s EO to not have the optic effect you think it is? If he gives $300, $200, $400?
There are absolutely a lot of people here who want to burn it down. You are not one of them and have a different target.
We’ve gotten at least 3 people who have beaten fossils in this cycle who will make it to Congress, if I’m not mistaken. That’s exactly what you’re going for inside this system of change. The Tea Party destroyed any chance of a ‘radical’ movement taking over the Democratic Party. In the Democratic Party, that faction would have been rightly marginalized until they had enough seats to kill legislation instead of how the Tea Party raged through the GOP like a wildfire getting what they wanted with a small amount of members. That’s why the Blue Dogs still have any power. If they align, they can kill every bill the Democrats put up (that would be suicide for them, but they can do it). After this cycle, they won’t have enough Blue Dogs. If progressives can get around 125 seats, they will have enormous power in the Democratic Party. I’m not sure of the exact count right now, but I think it’s pushing 100.
She’s not shooting hostages, they are.
I guess I hope you are right. Gaining a few progressives each cycle isn’t nothing but it feels like a long slog to get anywhere. Maybe we have a dam breaking moment somewhere in the next 10-20 years and can run the garbage out of positions of power in the party. AOC and her crew is probably the best near term shot.
I do think you are mistaking animosity towards the DemE and their constant failure for wanting to burn it down from at least some of us. The true burn it down types do exist here but they are a minority. It’s tabbaker, Watevs, Victor and who else? It’s hard to say they are completely wrong when trying to implement change through the normal channels has mostly been a complete failure. I would personally prefer burning it down over just slowly sliding into oblivion forever. Right now it is hard to see how we aren’t doing just that. Dem leadership is incompetent, Trump is going full dictator and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this election changes that. I certainly hope so.
Mitch requires liability protection if you negotiate with him, so you don’t - he’ll pass what the Trump admin agrees on. The Trump admin says $1T or fuck off, so your choices are:
- Liability protection
- $1T
- Walk
What do you do?
If you do 1 you killed more people. If you do 2 you didn’t get much help and boosted his re-election chances and caved 100% of the way when you had all the leverage. If you do 3, he gets to try this EO strategy.
So in #3, if he expands UI you:
- Claim victory and don’t sue
- Call him a dictator and sue
#2 puts the election back in play, or worse.
The Democratic Party cannot sue to take away unemployment benefits from desperate Americans. It’s political suicide. It lets Trump paint you as the enemy of the people and make it stick.
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I don’t think this bullshit will work. Paging narrator.
I’d like to think of it as each time a progressive wins, it makes other progressives want to try who thought it was hopeless. For someone like Bush to take down Clay was huge. She wasn’t at all close to him in 2018, and beat him strongly this time. I think you will see a sea of primaries won by progressives in the next 4 years provided Trump loses. Hopefully they’re in winnable seats.
I think when people feel really strongly about how things are going, they should run for office. I thought about encouraging watevs to run for Congress, because he would be a good bomb thrower and might have gotten some votes bringing serious attention to the issues that are important to him.
But an AOC type being a face for the future of the party is huge. If Ilhan Omar wins her primary, that solidifies that wing of the party which is what cements actual power. All of them did it by running for the people instead of interests and it worked. Many of the Tea Party people never got a second term and real change happens after you make it past that second term.
I’m putting all my hope in the election. After that, my mind will definitely be in a different direction if it doesn’t work out.
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I mean you say it right there. If liability protection has to be there, you get the highest bill possible. You want liability protection, give us the $3.4 trillion to deal with the damage you’re going to cause and be ready to come back for more when that’s not enough.
And again, I don’t believe anyone is walking. This was a bluff proved by Trump having nothing EO wise ready. Meadows is a dolt. Trump is a dolt.
Here’s a 3 for you in the event an EO happens: Claim Victory, call him a dictator, and sue (Pelosi already intimated this was what she would do yesterday, she just has no idea where he’s going to get the money)
They wouldn’t be suing to take it away, they would be suing to keep that power in their hands. They could say in their brief that if the president wants that amount of money, we’ll give it to him since we know he’ll sign it based on the EO. If he or the Senate balks, whose court do the bad optics go back to? When optics are being discussed, it’s always best to do any action that pushes the optics back poorly onto the other side. I don’t for a second believe the Democrats will be trying to stop any money flow.
Did you know the Democrats’ approval went up with CARES approval, and the GOP has gone up while the Democrats have gone down during the negotiations? Most voters are looking at this as ‘I need this, I don’t care where it comes from’. They’ll for sure remember who was a problem and it won’t be long or hard to make it back to the GOP being the problem here.
That’s not at all what I said. No liability protection under any circumstances. There’s no coming back to help the people liability protection kills.
You can’t claim victory then sue.
Congrats you’ve returned to step one and moved > 100% of the margin between Dems and the GOP. You’re quite the little negotiator, aren’t you?
This is why you keep passing good CARES extensions and blaming Trump and Mitch.
While millions of people become homeless and lose everything with untold thousands dying because of this you’re still talking gamesmanship…
For the liability protection, go back up thread and read what someone posted about how it’s unlikely many lawsuits if that wasn’t there would be successful. Liability protection doesn’t do nearly as much as you think it does, because the law is firmly against the worker/consumer as is.
We’re never going to see eye to eye on this. Agree to disagree or whatever.
I think millions becoming homeless is pretty unlikely personally. Some will suffer sure but at some point you have to stand up to the bully to end the bullying. Sometimes that means taking a bit of a beating but you are better off in the long run.
That’s easy to say if you’re not the person being affected by it. Sometimes standing up to the bully makes it worse.
Remember this the next time Democrats are in power and morons try to get shit done by acting in good faith to persuade republicans.*
*assumes democrats are ever in power again, duh
No liability shield is not gamesmanship it’s saving fucking lives. How many are you willing to kill to prevent X homeless?
And yet the corporations reeeeaaaaallly want it. I trust that they know what they’re doing. It’ll also apply to small businesses I’m sure. The GOP wants to force the economy open. They think death is okay, lost profits are not. That’s non-negotiable for me, and if that means millions homeless, so be it. We’ll do everything we can for them and tell them we had a choice in how many the GOP would kill and we chose the smaller number and we’re sorry they’re getting the raw end of that.
We’re all being affected by it. I’ll probably see my income go to zero and get zero unemployment and hemorrhage money for months, maybe tap my retirements, maybe not be able to resume my career after or have to play 1/2. Maybe have to risk COVID to play underground now to stay in the game later.
My best friend and his wife will be fucked with no extension. A couple of my cousins might, too.
I was bullied my whole childhood. I would teach my kids to stand up 100% of the time. It’s the right move. I was taught the opposite and until I stopped listening and took a swing at a guy who could have kicked my ass BADLY because I was so fed up, it continued. Then it stopped.
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Well, I mean, it is also SUPER because of the GOP too
BAHAHAHAHA, What a fucking joke. If this is what we are all scared of, I say bring it the fuck on. Orange moronic fuck.
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I get closer and closer every day. The country and government seem truly and irreparably broken. The only thing that keeps me from wanting full burn it down is that I know how many people it will hurt in the burning down/rebuilding process, and I’m not sure how comfortably I can live with that on my conscience.
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