The problem is that it appears we’re begging the question by saying the tweets are hateful and phobic as opposed to ignorant. And we are, because we know how slippery the slope is.
It’s like when I was arguing with Ikes about Leelah Alcorn’s suicide, and how I kept alluding to things I didn’t want to mention on such a high-volume public forum. The shit you might hear from an actual trans person friend about their feelings and thoughts on gender identity would be red meat to the bigots.
It’s really about how intimate vs how public this forum is. If it’s the latter then these conversations are always going to look a bit ridiculous because everybody’s basically adopting a “we only talk about that behind closed doors, not in front of you bigots” stance even if their not consciously aware of it and wouldn’t articulate it in the same way.
Almost certainly yes. And this goes true for anyone here, myself included. If I’m alone on an island arguing a position that so many thoughtful and intelligent people disagree with, I’m definitely doing to be re-examining my beliefs and be damn sure of the facts if I decide to stand my ground on the issue.
That’s a bit harsh on yourself, but if everyone is misunderstanding you 90% of the time, then you do need improvement in this area. I don’t think you’re a lost cause; I had shitty opinions when I was your age, and I probably still have some shitty opinions on a few things now.
I doubt you’re in any way defending me here, but I gave it a like anyway. There’s no question that many people here constantly and seemingly purposely turn someone who is simply ignorant on a topic and try and turn them into being hateful and phobic. I usually only engage here in topics I’m ignorant of. If I already know everything there is to know wtf do I need outside opinions for?
And to @MrWookie you can believe me or not that Dawkins and his tweet wasn’t intended to be the meat of this thread. I’ve toyed with starting a thread about social media in general and how we go about stopping the spread of disinformation and feel about allowing giant platforms like Twitter and FB to patrol what is and isn’t okay to say. Example: I’m happy I haven’t had to listen to Trump’s drivel for the past few months, but I’m not sure I agree with giant social media platforms banning him. I happened to come across the Dawkins debacle and thought it might merge with free speech in general, so that’s what I used to kick off what I thought would be a topic about free speech in general. It really had nothing to do with trans people or even what Dawkins himself thinks, but about engaging in debate before silencing, banning, or taking away awards, ruining careers, etc. Granted it was a clumsy transition. I won’t be around for a while, so you guys have fun!
There’s a big presumption in here that when people face backlash about their ideas there has not already been an active debate that established that these ideas are terrible.
Its not enough not to be transphobic. You have to be anti transphobic. You are not currently. Nothing you do or say protects trans people.
“Should we debate whether trans people are people?” Is an inherently transphobic question. its an intellectual debate to you. Its a matter of life or death for others.
Responding to the staggering high rates of trans youth suicide with “but all kids are bullied” is transphobic. Those deaths are partly the result of these online “debates” that villify and dismiss them. Dont be on team “bullying kids to death”
Im sorry if these labels hurt. You can either whine about it or change.
This is mostly because your views on the world are right wing conservative and those aren’t terribly popular on this site. So you feel like you are always being personally attacked even when nobody is addressing you.
You are young and may find your way but I am not counting on it. If you stumble upon financial success I put the odds really high you become a full blown conservative without any qualms.
I get it you want to debate all sorts of things you are just discovering. Unfortunately for you most people hacks discussed those topics to death for decades.
You regularly desire debates start at square one. Most people are not going to have the patience for that. Also as others have noted this is a common bad faith tactic of right wingers to obstruct the conversation from getting anywhere.
Keep believing this place is the problem. I hold out hope you will actual get some self realization at some point.
I was pretty much a full on conservative Republican into my thirties so I know it is not impossible. But a lot of questions you ask cause me concern as I can tell you are on the right wing Fox News Facebook misinformation treadmill. (Doesn’t mean you watch Fox News or use Facebook just that literally everyone gets their information filtered down through there). Because of this people often reacting a negative manner. When ten republicans make a bad argument and then you come here and make the same argument. It can be hard to approach it with an openess you feel it deserves.
You are still young. You just need to work much harder on how you receive, filter and categorize information.
Saying you heard something but couldn’t bother to research it before pushing it to others, especially when it is outlandish on its face, is something you should try to avoid.
I think everyone here has pushed some story or narrative that later turned out inaccurate. The goal is always yo improve on it and actually do the work to find out what’s real.
Unfortunately your whole life has existed with the internet as the central source of almost all information. Some of us a bit older grew up in a different world that involved a lot of skepticism for unknown information. Way too many people just take what they hear on the internet and pass it along as fact. There are millions of people in the world trying to spread misinformation and they directly take advantage of that fact.
The Canada story mostly bothers me, for you, because you seemingly didn’t question its viability at all. That concerns me. I think almost everyone else here thought that seemed extremely unlikely when hearing it. And several did the additional research to find out.
Part of being smart in 2021 is doing basic research before confidently stating an opinion on a subject. That’s required for junior high assignments, and now for discourse online. If you can’t take 2-5 minutes to peruse a Wikipedia page about a subject you’re ignorant about, you’re not smart. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Well, sure, but the insidious thing about online “research” in 2021 is that Facebook and YouTube are designed to channel you into a narrow scope of “similar and therefore desirable” content. If @Cactus clicked on one Jordan Peterson video on YouTube, even if he had the sense to say “huh, I’m not sure if I agree with that” and decided to “research” some additional videos his recommendations in YouTube will be dozens more JP videos and some “Ben Shapiro DESTROYS Feminist!” videos and stuff like that. Social media will put a bunch of affirmation options right in front of you, with little dopamine bursts every time you click one, and you have to manually open a new tab, Google “why is Jordan Peterson wrong about everything”, and then read probably some relatively bland articles on Vox or something. That’s achievable, but it’s a habit that has to be practiced. Whereas running down YouTube rabbit holes is addictive and easy by design. “Why don’t people do a better job of researching false claims online” belongs in the category of “why don’t people eat healthier” and “why don’t people do a better job of saving money”.
I just don’t know many right wing conservatives who:
Are pro union
Are for clean energy and want to get rid of fracking, pipelines, and coal sources
Would love to tax the living shit out of big corporations and the obscenely wealthy
Want to EXPAND voting rights and ways to vote so more minorities can participate
Are for defunding the police
Want to decriminalize prostitution, ALL drugs, and any victimless crime
Are against the death penalty
Think churches and all religious institutions should be taxed on donations received
Are for same sex marriage
Who don’t give a fuck which bathroom or locker room people use
Protest for BLM
Are ardent feminists
Welcome regulations that protect environment and working class
The list goes on and I probably forgot some important things. OTOH, there probably aren’t many progressives who don’t give a shit about being politically correct or if people’s feelings get hurt. I want real change. I don’t give a fuck about feelings
This is funny for several reasons. 1). I already have an above average paying job. 2). Online, I take on the role of devil’s advocate (again, so I can better rebut the positions I come across in my daily life), but in the real world I’m the one doing my best to put down and dunk on people who hold conservative ideas. and 3). While doing so, a friend of mine’s mother recently told a saying something like: If you’re not a liberal in your twenties you don’t have a heart. If you’re not a conservative in your forties you don’t have a brain. She said this because I was promoting liberal ideas of course
Well, I made a guy take off a “Make America Straight” hat at a restaurant. I’d say that was anti homophobic. I admit I have a little harder time understanding trans issues. Not sure if it’s like being gay in the past and trans people are still afraid of coming out, but from the research (LEARNING) I’ve done, something like 4/1000 identify and trans gender. So there’s a lot less opportunity to show an anti transphobic stance. Not sure what I can do other than show my support whenever possible and call out someone who IS being transphobic and pull for their rights. I haven’t said much anti transphobic ITT because for the umpteenth time, it wasn’t meant to be about trans people or Dawkins! I really wanted to get into the ability of these giant platforms to silence certain speech and also the ever growing ability to the spread disinformation
I admit I held Dawkins in much higher esteem than maybe I should have. Silly me for assuming that an emeritus professor at fucking Oxford knew a thing or two about educating and that his tweet was meant to provoke an interesting educational discussion that did not take us back to square one on an issue. Then again, he’s old and I suppose any old person can have antiquated views. I just expected better from him and assumed he wouldn’t tweet something so obviously and overtly discriminatory
I 100% agree with everything about these posts. Researching IS learning. I need to make the time if I want to educate myself rather than just post here. The time I waste on this forum I could’ve done much research into what other antiquated beliefs Dawkins holds.
I am definitely guilty of going down YouTube rabbit holes. But the channels I follow are people like David Doel, Krystal Ball, Sam Sneder, Emma Vigeland, Mike Figueredo, Kyle Kalinski, and TYT (although I think they’re a bit over the top for me lately), etc. Highly doubt any of those people would be considered right ring conservatives
Again, I consider myself more apprised of what’s going on politically than the average person, but I can and should do more of my own research. Clearly, I’m not the best debater and when I run into a position or argument in real life that stumps me, I’ll throw it up here (as my own) to see what I get. Unfortunately, it’s mostly just insults that I can’t and won’t use with people of differing viewpoints that I know in real life. So it’s pretty much a giant waste of time that would be better spent on me just doing my own research
