Are We In Danger Of Losing Freeze Peach (And Are We OK With That)?

[Cactus]

@mosdef

This is an “all lives matter” dodge.

No. It’s really not. It’s possible for two things to be true at the same time

[i2i]

lol who is talking about this Canada law that you just randomly hear it a few years later? And yeah if you don’t research what it is because it doesn’t affect you then maybe you shouldn’t use it as one of your debate points if you have no clue wtf you’re talking about.

[i2i]

Man I know 24 year olds can be arrogant, I know a few of them myself that I talk to regularly but this guy is just something else

[6ix]

@Cactus

@6ix

Peterson rode that shit to the bank too and even he knew he wasn’t describing the law accurately. It doesn’t matter if your followers are dumb as shit and you play to their preconceived biases.

There you go again. Calling people dumb. Most people who know me would call me a lot of things before they’d say I’m dumb. I’m just not up on news they way political junkies are. This represents like +90% of Americans. There is a difference between being ignorant and dumb. I hear about Canada enacting a law making it illegal to do x. I don’t research it because it doesn’t effect me, but I hear bits and pieces of the uproar Peterson is creating over it

The last person I had in mind when I said that was you. How would I know you’re a Peterson follower and why would you think I thought you were? Do you know what I mean by “follower”?

[catfacemeowmers]

I’ve got to be in the top .1% of politically engaged Americans and I’ve literally never heard of this Canadian pronoun thing before reading this thread.

[mosdef]

I think you missed the point. Caring about trans kids doesn’t mean that someone cares less about other kids. This is a dodge that the right employs to distract from talking about the reality of trans kids. The right uses this misleading structure all the time, for example with All Lives Matter. It’s the same thing. Saying Black Lives Matter isn’t saying that other lives don’t matter.

[Cactus]

I’ve long ago stopped watching CNN and MSNBC for my news. I follow a diverse range of people on Twitter and podcasts like the Humanist Report, Rational National, TYT, Crystal Ball, The Majority Report, Emma Vigilsnf, etc. These are people I almost always agree with. But to answer your question, no. I don’t have time to research and verify everything I read or hear. I don’t know what you people do for a living or what social lives you have, but I don’t know how you budget your time for this

[mosdef]

@Cactus

I don’t have time to research and verify everything I read or hear.

Maybe start with one thing?

[i2i]

At the very least he could research the things that he talks about and acts like he knows what they are

[MrWookie]

@Cactus

My main goal is to try and protect trans haters

That’s literally what you’ve been doing since the OP.

@Cactus

He did nothing but propose a question and say discuss.

@Cactus

I vehemently disagree with most of Jordan Peterson’s fame grabbing rhetoric, but did agree with his stance on that law

@Cactus

So you really think a scientist like Dawkins is transphobic? He of all people should realize (and does) that being gay is not a choice and should understand transgender issues and I feel confident he does

@Cactus

I read at least one comment already accusing Dawkins of being transphobic without giving any evidence to support that accusation. I just can’t respect that. Ideas, even unpopular or uncomfortable ones need to be debated.

@Cactus

I have a hard time believing someone who has made a career out of studying such things doesn’t have even a modest understanding of of trans issues and the biology of sex and gender. He’s a biologist for crying out loud!

@Cactus

I agree that Dawkins is far too smart not to have seen his tweet would be problematic and I’m not sure he was saying anything. I don’t see where he offered an opinion one way or another or took a side. He may very well feel the same way as his critics do and merely used that as an example for encouraging people to discuss

@Cactus

I understand (and agree) with most of what you’ve said here and am pretty sure Dawkins does much more so.

@Cactus

As RegretS said above Dawkins is no doubt well aware that his tweet will be construed as problematic. He doesn’t even give his own opinion, but just offers people to discuss.

@Cactus

I honestly have a hard time believing that a man like Dawkins is transphobic or trying to use his platform to create transphobia. He seems a man of science to me ready to be proven wrong. I also think he (like me) likes to play the devil’s advocate to encourage thinking. I have enjoyed his books and maybe I’m biased because of that

@Cactus

Because I didn’t infer any transphobia from that tweet and I don’t believe Dawkins is a transphobe

@Cactus

He’s wrong because he used the word “choose”. I missed that and it’s all that needed to be pointed out with respect to him and I’d have backed off immediately. I think it was a poor choice of words on his part. Otherwise, he’s probably done more for LGBTQ rights that most through his activism on religious nonsense. If he were to come out and say he really thought it’s a choice, I’d be just as disgusted with him as anyone else. I just don’t believe he really thinks that. How can he as a scientist?

@Cactus

But I could bring up a lot of other people too. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Christopher Hitchens (I really wonder how the latter would’ve faired in today’s social media climate). I just believe people have the right to be heard whether it’s on a campus, twitter, or wherever. And then people should be allowed to debate what they think is wrong. I try to start debates here (I’m probably not educated or smart enough to do so), but it’s never a debate. It immediately turns into a circle jerk of people rubbing each other off in a gang fuck fest. Very few want to intellectually engage (I very much appreciate that you and a few others do seem to be willing)

To insinuate that you’re not defending transphobes is pure trolling at this point.

You can usually tell more about a person’s deeply held beliefs by the battles they choose to fight more than the things they say they uphold. You’ve spilled an incredible amount of pixels in defense of people getting called transphobic, and you haven’t gone to bat for trans people at all except for pretty hollow statements about being on their side. You’re not. You’re fighting against their side, and that’s what everyone here gets.

@Cactus

I don’t research it because it doesn’t effect me, but I hear bits and pieces of the uproar Peterson is creating over it

Your gut instinct was to align with Peterson and against trans people. That’s where you are. If you don’t like that or don’t think it’s fair, you’ve got some soul searching to do.

Zikzak was right that this was a troll thread, and we’re well into the territory of bad faith when you’re lying about your posts in this very thread. I’ll likely be closing it soon.

[Cactus]

@6ix

The last person I had in mind when I said that was you. How would I know you’re a Peterson follower and why would you think I thought you were? Do you know what I mean by “follower”?

I don’t follow him, but I hear of him. I agree with you that he realized he fell into a gold mine and started using his platform to make money. But even non followers like me hear of him and his rhetoric. He’s captured (mostly men from my understanding) who feel they’ve been marginalized by the #METOO movement. It’s amazingly easy to get privileged white males to think they’re being mistreated if others so much gain an ounce more equality

[i2i]

lol budget time for this? I don’t listen to any of the things you just mentioned and still can google a law in 2 seconds. Also pretty sure none of the sources you listed have talked about Canadian pronoun laws so seems like you get your misinfo from some other places too

[mosdef]

@MrWookie

Your gut instinct was to align with Peterson and against trans people. That’s where you are. If you don’t like that or don’t think it’s fair, you’ve got some soul searching to do.

This is so true, assuming that the entire thread isn’t performative. If you don’t have time to research ideas but all the alt right narratives feel spot on to you, it’s not on everyone else to meet you where you are and debate the merit of toxic ideas.

[6ix]

@Cactus

@6ix

The last person I had in mind when I said that was you. How would I know you’re a Peterson follower and why would you think I thought you were? Do you know what I mean by “follower”?

I don’t follow him, but I hear of him. I agree with you that he realized he fell into a gold mine and started using his platform to make money. But even non followers like me hear of him and his rhetoric. He’s captured (mostly men from my understanding) who feel they’ve been marginalized by the #METOO movement. It’s amazingly easy to get privileged white males to think they’re being mistreated if others so much gain an ounce more equality

Yeah, that dude has a “cult-like following” and that’s the cliched phrase I was referencing, not you or me or whomever else has followed the news of him and the stuff he says.

[6ix]

@MrWookie

I’ll likely be closing it soon.

don’t you dare

[mosdef]

There’s a certain irony in locking the free speech thread that is too perfect to oppose, IMO. This will prove once and for all that conservative voices are being SILENCED by CANCEL CULTURE.

[Cactus]

@MrWookie

To insinuate that you’re not defending transphobes is pure trolling at this point.

Well then I really suck at writing because defending transphobes was not even a thought that entered my head. What I was trying to do was create a discussion on what’s acceptable and not acceptable subject material for debate. I admit I gave Dawkins the benefit of the doubt. I’ve mentioned before that I’ve probably read every book he’s written. I’ve always been impressed with him as an educator. So when he puts out a tweet with a premise and says, “discuss” I assume there’s educational benefit to it

I don’t care if the subject was trans people, evolution, religion, or where the universe came from. I think you should be able to ask questions and discuss all those things. It didn’t enter my mind he was being disingenuous and trolling trans people. I still have a hard time believing that he himself is transphobic. I think like me, he was clumsy with his phrasing. I’m clumsy a lot, but I’m also a layman. As an emeritus professor he should be much more careful

@MrWookie

Your gut instinct was to align with Peterson and against trans people. That’s where you are. If you don’t like that or don’t think it’s fair, you’ve got some soul searching to do.

Also, this is ridiculous. To say I align with Peterson borders on defamation

[MrWookie]

@Cactus

Well then I really suck at writing because defending transphobes was not even a thought that entered my head.

To say that your incredible commitment to defending the Great CORNELIUS DAWKINS against those who would besmirch his good name is a writing problem is laughable. Maybe you have a bad time staying on message, but your writing has been abundantly clear. You’re here to defend Dawkins against those saying he’s a transphobe.

@Cactus

I don’t care if the subject was trans people, evolution, religion, or where the universe came from.

Literally every example you’ve brought in here has been ur bois opposing trans people.

@Cactus

Also, this is ridiculous. To say I align with Peterson borders on defamation

That’s a you problem, not a me problem. You literally and in your own words aligned with Peterson on the Canadian trans law issue and took his summary of the Canadian law as credible. Maybe if you don’t want to be accused of siding with him, you can try not believing what he says and not siding with him?

[Cactus]

Dawkins was irrelevant. It was the questioning of ideas I was defending. I could’ve taken something from Harris or Hitchens (two others who’s intellect I admire even though I don’t always agree with) or I’m sure I could’ve found an AOC, Sanders, or Jimmy Dore quote to use

I do not think I’ve opposed trans people. I recognize their rights not to be disparaged and feel they should be treated just as equally as anyone else

I was aligning with Peterson only to the extent I do not think governments should be creating laws making anything but hate speech illegal. I now understand I misunderstood what that law was (something Peters no doubt fully understood)

But when I’m in a spot where I think everyone is wrong but me, then the problem lies with me. Clearly, I’m a shitty writer who sucks at transferring thoughts into words and a terrible poster. So we’ll leave it at that and I won’t post any more here. That will be easy enough for me to do

[MrWookie]

@Cactus

Dawkins was irrelevant.

Rofl. Do you need me to post that same wall of quotes again? Even in the most charitable interpretation of things, you got told clearly and quickly that we aren’t in danger of losing free speech and that losing an award is a horrible example of an alleged infringement on free speech, and then you spent a ton of posts defending Dawkins from charges of transphobia.

@Cactus

I do not think I’ve opposed trans people.

And yet you consistently and reflexively align with their opponents. Curious.