Why do you think anyone is innocent? We pay taxes, we eat meat, we eat vegetables, we wear clothes, we drive cars, we buy electronics, we do all sorts of shit that causes untold suffering on millions of people and you draw the line at military service? You’re no better than Cuse thinking he can insult people into being nice. What is making veterans feel like shit going to accomplish?
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Jal was being a jerk, but by no means are people who join the military without responsibility and it’s also not the same thing as working for Chick-fil-A or a call center.
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The best excuse people have for joining the military, and it’s a good one, is that many of them were recruited into it as children.
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Why’s that? Did you all have a meeting and elect him First Lord of the Shitpostery? I certainly don’t get offended when you guys dunk on victor or avwal or Ikes. And I’m well aware of my own party’s complicity.
They tried to get me to join up when I was in high school. Even tried to sell me on doing photography of some sort since I was doing a lot of it back then. Really I was easy mark and was close to going but it would of got in the way of chasing girls and smoking pot so I went to community college instead…
I was way to young and dumb to even be given the choice in the first place though. They should not be able to try and get people to join until somewhere in their twenties.
As far as the people who join. Meh most of my anger is at those who get us into our wars not those who fight them.
I agree with this.
If fucknugget had asked “how do you reconcile your progressive views here with the fact that the military as a whole and the hardware you specifically supported regularly commit atrocities abroad” then it would have got a heart.
Im not sure exactly where the line is between legitimately holding people to account for their actions and spitting on vietnam war draftees, but he wasnt on the right side of it.
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That was a good post, but it should not be forgotten that this is almost entirely a fabricated story that reactionaries use.
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Vehemently disagree with this. Many of the people in the lower ranks of the military are there either by economic necessity (free college and room/board for a few years is a powerful draw for the poor), or because they were recruited as late teens and didn’t know any better. And to roughly quote louis ck, they honestly believe they are serving and dying for their country. That is a noble thing even if it is flat out bullshit.
Seems a bit much to place blame on them for decisions well beyond their control. It is the height of privilege to judge them for it.
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Like I said in the next post, many of them are recruited as children. But not all of them. And even seventeen year olds bear some responsibility to know what they are being paid to do whether that’s joining a gang, the police, or the Marines.
And I don’t think people should spit on ex-gang members either.
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You spend billions a year in military propaganda, and that’s been a thing for a century. Acting like a teenager is supposed to know better, or assume they have better options, is insane.
Microbet, its downright impossible to become a cop at 17 and very tough to do it before 21 in any major city.
And the average income of the families of military recruits is above the national average.
And really, y’all think you’re defending skydiver8 with this take?
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A bunch of things here:
Lately there has been a rise in personal attacks on people that don’t deserve them. That shouldn’t be what this community is about.
Its not really about skydiver personally. As has been said, punching down at the lowest members of an institution doesn’t change the problems with that institution. Banks aren’t shitty because your teller.
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That really isn’t saying much in a nation where the average income is not enough to even support one’s self much less a family. And to point to studies that refer to “top 40% of income” is certainly not taking into account the lopsided nature of income and wealth inequality in america. The people serving aren’t from the nation’s richest families. Those kids just don’t go, because there is no reason to.
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I think they can handle the idea that they bear some responsibility. I’m not calling for war crimes trials for privates and it seems like some kind of a bullshit, self-righteous, disingenuous, patronizing, reactionary, brain-dead rhetorical device to have the take that it is wrong to talk about the responsibility of veterans.
No offense meant really. It’s the bog standard take. You didn’t invent it.
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If the richest kids don’t go and yet the average is still above the mean, that means recruits skew even more towards middle and upper middle class.
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Punching at Trump isn’t as fun anymore since he lost so people have to get their fix elsewhere. I’m glad Trump lost and all but it isn’t a good shift. I think it is because the one thing that unified us was Trump hate. Now the tendency is to go back to focusing on our differences.
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I think any broad strokes brush painted on a diverse group of people is dumb. I am a pacifist by nature and war abhors me. I don’t even like video games that are too violent. But placing a moral responsibility on someone for war crimes that are beyond their control is just going after the wrong people for the wrong thing. Many times these people have lifelong issues from their service. What am I supposed to do, say they deserve it?
I know a piece of shit guy that served and a pretty cool guy that served in afghanistan. Both have PTSD and lasting physical injuries from combat. I can’t even fucking imagine trying to tell them they are morally culpable for crimes they didnt even commit, much less make the decision for. Just because they were a small part of the machine? Screw that.
It’s like saying because I’m a worker drone that works for a for-profit company that I’m morally culpable for the horrors capitalism has inflicted on the lower class. It’s just nonsense.
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Dunno if there’s been an increase. There has always been a lot of unpleasantness here. Jal was being a jerk as I said.
I don’t think skydiver8 needs to be protected though from people saying they think that even recruits bear some responsibility for their choices. I don’t think that makes them bad people, and certainly people grow and change. And, like kerowo said, we all do stuff that hurts others.
You can say people are responsible for their choices without saying they deserve PTSD or anything like it.
And your company is not responsible for the horrors of capitalism just because they are a for-profit company. If they are actually doing something terrible, then ffs of course you should quit.
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