That’s perfectly fine.
I honestly have no idea what triggers the fuck out of everyone. I’m actually being pro America here and jwax is like NO FUCK AMERICA BUT I’M COOL
“I want a good faith discussion. Here’s this insane take that is must be super easy for an average US citizen to leave the country”
two posts later
“Lol you’re a racist based on literally nothing”
Yea. That’s a perma ignore. Clown.
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Literally none of this is what I said. You didn’t even make a single point in this discussion. And after two seconds you already narrowed down the list of countries you’d be willing to move to to “western” ones that will accept you immediately. Real strong conviction there, fake lib.
I will also lay 1-10 that he is so dumb that he thinks I was being anti-America here.
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lol
I don’t even get this pissing fight. Not only are you not a real match, but you’re just spamming at this point.
What point of mine are you refuting? I never said it was easy to immigrate. Immigration is fucking hard. Ask any of the many immigrants in your area.
I’m not saying that someone who chooses to stay where they are born and their families live and surrenders money that they are compelled to surrender is without culpability. And “culpable for American imperialism” is over-dramatic to the point of strawmanning. They are responsible for a choice, one that is quite easy to not make, and then their contribution to whatever war they are put into, often mitigated by being children when they made that choice.
Does living in a city make me culpable for police violence the same as if I join the police?
I guess I see it differently as I don’t fault my friends who served in active combat for the IDF but I do blame my government.
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It’s somewhat different since there is conscription in Israel.
And I have friends who were in the US military too. I have a brother who has worked in the war industry and another in the criminal justice industry and my dad worked for the military for a time and I don’t even despise any of them for it. I’m not blameless in a lot of things as well. I don’t see why people can’t have a discussion about personal responsibility in general without it having to be so extreme that one side has to suggest this is like the trials at Nuremburg and such.
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Which is why i specified active combat, which maybe the wrong phrasing but I suck at military jargon.
Do they have to choose that or is it chosen for them? An Israeli guy I know who talked about patrolling Gaza sure seemed like he never would have chosen to do it.
A mixture of both. If you don’t want to be a combat soldier in the IDF there are usually easy ways to get around it. You will still serve in the military. But are people in the intelligence force any less culpable than those actually shooting? I honestly don’t know.
So a person of Native American heritage, whose ancestors were marched to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears from the SE US, is as culpable for the war atrocities of the US military (including the Genocide of his own relatives) as someone who VOLUNTARILY signs up to join the military?
This is the logic of an Israeli (another occupying force in someone else’s indigenous lands. Hmmm). And I’m just as responsible as Jarhead John Doe because I won’t move to Uruguay?
Just fucking LOL.
https://twitter.com/sheaserrano/status/1325131057851740160?s=21
Are Americans who aren’t of Native American heritage are as responsible as someone who voluntarily signed up to join the military?
If no, what does your heritage have anything to do with this conversation?
That’s what confuses me to about these threads, but I think the reason, to some extent, is that the real answer that it depends and that every choice everyone makes could potentially be morally significant sometimes, is so obvious, boring and without consequences that the strawmanning is necessary to even have a debate.
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I don’t disagree with this. But I’m not trying to strawman. Maybe I have but it wasn’t intentional. I think there’s a certain responsibility for all of us and I personally don’t think that serving in the army makes your responsibility significantly bigger than if you’re just enjoying the US economy.
In a way I think that the 2nd part is something that people aren’t really willing to talk about. Hence getting mad at me for even suggesting going through the very unpleasant road of emigrating.
Well, it certainly wasn’t aimed at you in particular. Part of what motivated me to post might have been that your point about choosing countries and the responsibility there was challenging to me as an immigrant. So I did my own strawmanning!
It’s a matter of choices, some being better than others and weighing your own personal interest as well. Abandon your family vs. stay and work a job you think is helpful? Join the military or police or sell drugs or sell cigarettes or whatever might be harmful to people vs doing something that might be helpful.
Now, most people who join the military and even the police probably think they are going to help people more than hurt them. Being wrong is different than making an immoral decision. But, that doesn’t mean people aren’t responsible for their choices just because they were following orders and didn’t set foreign policy.
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No but it doesn’t completely absolve you either. I think the main difference is that it’s easier to join the police force, see how fucked up it is, quit and do something else than any of those steps are with regard to the military.
I think so in the US. I think a lot of people get into intelligence to protect us from threats, and a lot probably do end up doing work to that end.
Though I’m sure to some it doesn’t seem like it, I’m not hot to blame people in the military or cops, but for people to generally accept that they are responsible for choices they make, myself included.
Eating meat, chocolate, buying index funds, taking a drive etc are all things that have real impacts in the world and you are not without responsibility just because you are having a small effect or because society isn’t passing the laws you want to mandate something different.
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Sure. I could affirmatively do more. I could buy everything on the black market to avoid the sales taxes that pay for police. I don’t know that I can move anywhere without police. I could kill myself to avoid supporting police. But it’s a lot easier to just not join the police force. You have to go quite a ways out of your way to join it.