I have nothing of substance to add to the discussion so I’ll give a personal anecdote. The issue of the historical interconnectedness between capitalism and racism has been discussed and debated for a very long time. When I was in graduate school I took a course in economic development which covered this (the course was taught by the father of someone this forum is familiar with). For what it’s worth I wrote a term paper on the prevalence of pre-industrial revolution societies reliance on slaves and/or forced labor.
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Metaphorically speaking, when the tsunami kills everyone (including you), at least it won’t be your fault. That’s pretty much your position.
But meanwhile if I’m consuming more than you but actually out advocating for good candidates like Bernie or AOC with my time and wallet, who’s doing more to prevent the catastrophe? Who’s more to blame?
That’s a complex question.
I’ve addressed this on numerous occasions in this thread. I think my ideas could work, I don’t know for sure cause we’ve never tried it. But so far nobody else is advocating FOR a system.
You might have to be more specific, but I’ve already addressed this with regard to oil and plastic.
Wherein the guy who is clearly not reading my responses and proposals tells me to shove them up my ass. Go back and read them and address them or fuck right off.
Your idea needs that kind of buy-in to work. Mine needs 60-70M voters. I’m not trying to convince 200M people.
Obviously not, but I think we have a non-zero chance to reverse it if we act very very quickly. So do you or you’d already be moving inland to higher ground and attempting to set up a survival bunker of some sort and grow all your own food. Instead you’re still in Cali, considering a move to the Vancouver area, right? You think you’re going to survive the iceberg there? Or are you just resigned to the demise of yourself and everyone you know?
From what I’ve seen the news is giving less and less time to the peaceful protests even as their numbers hold or grow. Peaceful protest can slowly create change, what is most effective over a 1-2 year stretch is an open question IMO.
I would guess peaceful because there’s a time limit on non-peaceful before the powers that be send in the tanks.
The Nordic system will never be adopted in the US because it’s a society that’s always been based on greed and the cult of the individual.
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Let’s pick this back up when it gets moved to a new thread. One of my closest friends who I have posted about was forced to go back to Saudi Arabia after getting a grad degree here, which was devastating to her because she loves America so much (at least what we should be/cold be). Last year I talked her into not giving up, and tried to get her to pursue Canada. She said no, she wanted to be in America, so she did the diversity visa application. 1 in 127 people make round 2 and a little under half make it from there. I didn’t tell her the odds because I didn’t want to bring her down, but obviously I expected disappointment.
She just sent me a copy of the email that told her she made round two. Nothing is ruining my joy for her today!
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History and theory say that in cases like the US today, they “work” best together. See: integration of lunch counters c1960s (history), see diversity of tactics (theory).
First, the ongoing protests, even when the MSM loses interest in them, still serve the direct result of keeping police brutality down (outside of suppressing the protests), documenting just how violent the police are, and also of great importance: stressing if not bankrupting the police departments and local jurisdictions.
The bigger answer is every action builds upon previous actions.
Millions of people have taken to the streets. Tens of millions know them personally. Tens of millions just found out that the cops can be stood up to. Hundreds of thousands have been radicalized (at least). Personal connections that’ll last a lifetime in the communities of opposition have been forged. All important experience on the streets and jails has been learned. Communities have been founded.
And… it’s worth doing for the sake of doing it. I really can’t stress this enough. These are the times of our lives. All those privileged enough should give it a try. Being on the streets and yelling “who’s street, our street”… and it actually being true at that moment… is a high you just can’t buy.
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And for as much as we focus on the problems here and what a mess we are, this 30 year old girl from Saudi Arabia who spent a few years here, and was even spit on here by a stranger in the streets, doesn’t want to be anywhere else in the world. I tried to talk her into Canada, but she wants to be an American, and help make this place better. So much so that she preferred a long shot here to a better chance there.
She just said to me, “I’ve always considered it to be home, even when people were rude and aggressive to me. I love and will always love America.”
Edit: she meant to say love twice.
I mean I’m pretty hard against a national minimum wage even $15/hour.
In Pickens SC 30 minutes from my house a living wage is like $7.00/hour and pushing even 15/hour would destroy their economy.
Not everyone lives in a big city. Those that do need to push this legislation on a local basis because cost of living in SF CA is easily 5x what it is where I live.
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Hey someone in the world has some hope, and they actually think that America can be made into a better place that more closely resembles its ideals, so much so that they want to come here despite being subjected to our racism and try to make it better. Lets piss all over them! I mean, she’s already literally been spit on here walking down the street, but sure step right up to tell her how wrong she is and how powerless she is to do her part to spark change.
Might as well shit on all of the peaceful protesters, too. They all think change is possible. Why don’t you go out there and tell them to get the fuck out of here, too.
Just as it’s working folks job to organize as a class, it’s the capitalists job to keep that from happening. The capitalists constantly need to be in a situation where they can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half. Otherwise no more capitalism, and the former capitalist are dangling from the lamp posts.
To exist, the capitalists must needs always divide civil society into buffer classes. It does this in many ways. Two ways will necessarily always be sex and race.
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Seems like you are arguing with Kendi since I was requoting the passage you posted from his book where he says capitalism (at least as people like Liz Warren use the term) might not be inextricably linked with racism.
I don’t know an example of a capitalist society that doesn’t have racism. But then again I don’t know an example of any modern society that doesn’t have racism.
We should continue this in another thread another day, but I think one potential starting point is discussing whether there is any country in the world that we think is a good example to emulate.
I’m talking about that wing of the party, which I believe will take power in this country if we still have a functional democracy in 2024-2028. Bernie fueled AOC. AOC has more power within the party now, at 30 years old, than Bernie had until he was probably 73 or 74… and she can keep building.
And I know you’re part of a family of immigrants, and I don’t think nihilism is a good philosophy to have politically. I mean, I’m not sure it leads to the conclusions you want, certainly not for most people.
This country has made big leaps forward in the past, and we’re either about to do so or collapse on ourselves. As long as there’s a chance of a big leap, I think we should all go for it, not just sit around and watch the collapse while holding our hands up saying, “Don’t blame me, I didn’t do it!”
We still won’t be perfect, but there’s no such thing. If you took away the vote from everyone over 50 in this country, we’d probably be pretty close to actually being USA#1 again within 10-15 years. The question is whether we can white knuckle it through these stacked crises and get to the point where the current under-50 population is enough of the voting population to dictate policy. Whether or not we’re still a functional democracy is a big question, but it’s not over yet.
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I don’t know, I think this thread proves that we need to agree on what is wrong before we can talk about solutions.
You mean capitalism, right?
Capitalism inherently has social stratification. Or rather, all societies have stratification and capitalism naturally stratifies along lines of economic class and the division of labor.
Race is the defining thread of American history. You can’t talk about America without talking about race. American capitalism has a natural inclination to stratify along racial lines. Is that because it is inherently a facet of a multicultural society or is it merely a convenient fault line that the wealthy elites are naturally inclined to seek out and exploit? That can be debated, but I would argue that capitalism does not need racism to exist, yet may amplify racism wherever race exists. However, less capitalism won’t necessarily lead to less racism.
I do think though that at least American capitalism encourages racism because thoughts like you’re the only person responsible if you aren’t successful, makes it easy to say this whole race isn’t successful and it’s their own fault.
Also when everyone is guaranteed healthcare, housing, food etc, makes it easier to agree that all people are worth caring about and easier to see and believe that other people think that.
American capitalism discourages anti-racism because that form of capitalism is built upon the myth of individualism and anti-racism has a strong component of identity politics, which is contrary to individualism. Then, you have some anti-capitalists who seem to dislike race-based idpol because they see it as competition for class-based identity. I guess what I am saying is, “Fuck individualism.”
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