@skydiver8 , I’d be interested in your answers to these when you have a chance
My parents could not afford to fully pay for an out of state college unless I got help. But we weren’t going hungry, either. I honestly don’t know their income back then, but this was also the very early 90’s and things were quite different in this country. A family of 5 that made less than 100k a year could survive just fine. Maybe not pay for college for three kids, but survive.
Obviously my personal memories of the time are clouding my judgement, but the rich kids who could pay to go Harvard or Yale are what I would have called upper class back then.
have you guys heard of the communist West Point caset who graduated but then forced out of the army? it was probably more sensationalist than reality, but still an interesting story.
fwiw, i know a person whose sister was at the naval academy and now serves on a sub with 6 month total silence deployments. just listening to his family perspective is crazy shit.
Interested in why you wouldnt use the term “working class”?
Actually, looking into this further, it may not qualify. They don’t offer JD degrees. So you would have to go to a civilian law school to get that first. Then you can get a Masters degree from there.
They aren’t going to say no, but they are still going to strongly encourage OTS. Just like in the civilian sector, recruiters are like HR, and they know if they sign you up for something you’re overqualified for, no matter how cool it sees now, the likelihood that you’ll leave sooner rather than later for greener and more challenging pastures is much higher.
Nope. Gotta get your GED first. But they probably have programs that will help you do that.
One of the big reasons is time. Promotions when you’re enlisted come based on passage of a test after a little bit of time (6-months to a year or so) at your current rank. Promotions when you’re an officer are solely time+merit/performance based, with an “up-or-out” rule.
Here’s a couple links to explain. The enlisted one is Army-based, but most services are the same.
If you make it to E-6 (Staff Sergeant or equivalent), you have some responsibility, some folks under you, and some decent pay and respect. If you go to OTS at this point, you’re back to the lowest rung (2LT or Ensign), no responsibility, not a lot of respect, and you have to spend 2 years there before you get another raise/promotion.
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I don’t know. It’s not bias. I doubt you’d think their jobs would fit in that category. But 30 years ago, I guarantee you they made less money than what skilled tradespeople make now (what we might consider “working class”. It’s really hard to compare when salaries for my parents’ professions have increased so much over the past couple of decades.
My Dad was a college professor and my mom was a staff physical therapist at the local hospital. Their combined income was probably around 80k per year but I can’t be sure. I recall my mom going on strike when i was in elementary school, and I know she made less than the RNs at the time. When she got her degree, PTs only got a bachelor’s. Now it’s a whole masters program to work at the same level she did.
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see 1:20-30
The Navy’s supply ships are primarily crewed by civilians, including the ones doing at-sea replenishment. It’s called the Military Sealift Command.
Didn’t see these posts in the context of the Russia thread but regarding military officer vs enlisted class: there’s a super strong self selection bias based on what individuals think they can achieve. I don’t know if I’ve met anyone enlisted who joined thinking they had limitless potential. In contrast there are tons of incredibly dumb officers who grew up being told they deserved everything in life.
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Thanks. It’s why I asked. This stuff isnt black and white.
I think I’d probably say middle class as well, just based on parents education level rather than income.
Thanks again for the info.
One more question. Let’s say you go the enlisted route for 10 yrs or so and were at E-9, then you decide to get a degree and apply to be an officer. Presumably, you would have to start at O-1. Would they reduce your salary?
I think it would be a slight pay cut, but not too much. But I cannot imagine an E-9 ever doing this. Only ten years left for retirement and this is the situation:
An E-9 is very high enlisted rank. There are only 10k of those in the entire military. You’re the top enlisted guy in your unit, possibly even your battalion or base. You’re included on command staff and in decision making. And you probably already have a degree. Lots of enlisted troops get them at night/on the side.
As An O-1 you’ll get coffee, make briefings ( but probably not give them), you might have 8 guys reporting to you if you’re infantry. You have zero say in anything.
I mean, someone motivated solely by money might be able to stand it, but most people who have spent any time at a level with respect and responsibility really struggle to get knocked back down to peon rank.
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O-5. Getting to O-6 is a bit of a political networking game, so it’s possible to get there without machination but tough.
O-7 and up is flag officer rank (General or Admiral) and that is 95% politics (except in wartime, but that’s different)
Most officers hit their 20-year retirement mark when they are O-5, so it’s a good breaking point, anyway.
Can you explain this 20 year retirement a bit more? I assume you get some sort of pension at that point. Is there any incentive to stay longer to get a larger pension?
Also which 20 yrs count? For example if the Army paid for college and you’re doing whatever extra Army stuff they have you during that time, then does that count? Do years at a service academy count?
bah, deleted. it’s changed since I was in.
it’s still a good deal, especially since 20 years means you’re in your early to mid 40s when you retire. so you get your military pension on top of whatever you make when you go work at a corporate job.
So your 4 years in college counted towards the 20? That makes it an even better deal.
oh, no. I forgot to answer that. Nope, it didn’t. Academy/ROTC cadets aren’t considered active duty for retirement purposes.
If you’re running the military, this seems like a leak, since you figure to lose people at their professional prime. What I would do is some sort of graduated system where maybe you average out at 2%/yr when you get to 20 years, but it would increase so each year after year 20, you get a bit more.
You would still get a lot of people leaving at 20, but maybe you would retain more of them.
They don’t want to keep them. It’s too expensive.
Did I mention the “up or out” policy for officer promotion? If you get passed over twice, you HAVE to leave. If you get passed over once, it’s a pain in the ass to try again because you have to start kissing ass and filling out a lot of bullshit paperwork, get recommendations, etc. and a LOT of people get passed over for promotion to O-6.
It’s the weed-out level. There’s a mini-weed out level at O-4, but that’s only 20%.
Because going for 0-6 is a pain in the ass, and normally doesn’t come until you’ve been in for 22 years, those O-5s who don’t want to even try for it get out at 20-21 years.
Some just stay at O-5 until they’re forced out. Many of my AFA classmates are at this point. My AFA roommate will never make O-6 (she had a DUI as a 1LT) but she’s still in for another year because she truly loves her job.
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