Re the officers vs enlisted thing.
Its class. Working class kids go enlisted. Middle and upper class kids become officers.
Now that distinction blurs around the edges with education etc, but it’s still a pretty good approximation, and always has been.
America isnt real comfortable talking about class, which is why we’ve had 50 + posts on the topic before it was mentioned.
Is there a field on the application form for “class”? Just wondering how they’re going to know.
I’m probably going to bow out of further discussion.
As a non american. I’m not particularly well informed on how class plays out in military recruitment.
That said. America’s inability to understand and talk about class as a whole is something where an outsider. Especially one who’s spent time in the UK, probably does have a useful perspective.
You can’t tell working class and middle/upper class people apart?
Besides, most of the time they self-segregate all on their own.
Just wondering how that’s going to play out in practice in the military recruitment process. Ooh, this dude’s got good elocution, put him on the NCO fast track? I just somehow doubt the same heuristics that we might use to make a snap judgement of someone we meet at a bar are going to apply in this scenario.
And yeah, I know my sarcasm detector is probably broken. I guess my main point is that not everything needs to be framed as a class war.
I wouldn’t be surprised if 30-50% or so of academy grads are “working class.” Too easy to confuse class with college education. Ted Cruz and JD Vance are “working class” by your definition. Colin Powell and Rex Tillerson as well.
While there may be mostly working class enlisted, that’s probably because most middle class have ready access to some form of college education. However, there’s enough social mobility that many working class can do ROTC, etc.
Hell, the US military is probably a mostly working class institution all the way to the top. The privileged tend to avoid meritocratic institutions.
We don’t live in 1600-1850, or in the UK. Class is usually overrated in social analysis, especially in the last 100 years.
Easy, the “education” part tells you what class they’re in. I think we based our system on the British model, officers are the well-heeled lads who went to Eton or whatever.
I was not being sarcastic at all. I can assure you most people are very good at detecting social class. If you don’t see it much it may be because you are in a homogeneous environment.
I am quite adept at it myself, there are many shibboleths that give the game away, at least over in these 'ere parts. I’m expressing skepticism that those judgements are used as part of the military recruitment process.
I think we would find that of, say, the top 200 universities, the lower the typical “class” status of grads, the more popular ROTC is.
Texas A&M and Fresno State are going to provide many more military officers than Oberlin or USC.
It is mainly that middle and upper class people just don’t enlist, because they have better options. If they are dedicated to the military, they choose the service academies to become officers.
Oh, ok, thanks, didn’t know that there were different routes to join. I know next to nothing about military and war stuff, learnt quite a lot just following the events of the last few weeks.
A while back I assumed something along this lines, too, but I was corrected. The make-up of the US armed forces has changed.
Plus to get into the fast-track career path you’ll want to go to a military college like the Naval Academy or VMI, and there are all kinds of hoops to jump through that are easier for wealthier kids. My buddy was dead-set on going that route and he had to get like a letter of recommendation from a Congressman to get in.
Yeah, skydiver hinted at this but wasn’t explicit enough for someone unfamiliar with the military recruiters in high schools and how they contrast with the military academies and the difficult they are to get in. You literally need the nomination of a congresscritter, so it helps to know someone who knows one.
That’s a pretty good example of how to lie with graphs. Not that much of a difference there really. Would have guessed more tbh
Think the congressman thing is a rubber stamp holdover from 19th century. If you want to get into an academy it’s because you are an eagle scout, military family, know the hoops, not because you go to the right country club.
Family friend went to west point. His dad probably served in WW2 and he was an eagle scout who flew gliders in HS. Went on to become a math phd and prof in a nonmilitary college.
It’s damn hard to get into an academy, as for one it’s a free prestigious college, but it’s more like the apex for a middle to lower middle class talented kid than a path for upper class.
Graduates of the United States service academies attend their institutions for no less than four years and, with the exception of the USMMA, are granted active duty regular commissions immediately upon completion of their training. They make up approximately 20% of the U.S. armed forces officer corps.
Officer (armed forces) - Wikipedia.
Until the Cardwell Reforms of 1871, commissions in the British Army were purchased by officers. The Royal Navy, however, operated on a more meritocratic, or at least socially mobile, basis.
Back in the early 90s in Ohio, “knowing your congressman” was a little different than it is now. They actually showed up to local shit all the time. So I wouldn’t say we were buddies, but I had met him before. When I got my nomination, I didn’t have anyone call him and mention me or anything like that, especially since my parents and all their friends were Democrats, and he was a Republican…yuck. I just went through the process. We were firmly middle class…And I would say at the time I was in high school, in the lower half of incomes.
I decided I wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, so my parents scraped and I got scholarships to go to a private high school in Cincinnati, because our hometown public school was shit, with no AP classes and very limited extracurricular options…both of which were necessary to compete for a service academy spot.
Every member of congress and senator has their own process to choose their service academy nominees, and each one is limited to 5 per year per service academy. All I did was apply to both my senators and my congressman, and worked my ass off in HS. I didn’t date or party, I studied and did drama club, edited the school newspaper, show choir, orchestra, cross country, swimming, and track, as many AP courses as I could take, volunteered at a nursing home, etc, all to build my resume to get into USAFA.
All of this also helped me secure a 4-year ROTC scholarship, which is a full ride to any college that has a ROTC detachment. So I also applied to several civilian schools as backup.
The people who can pay for college don’t apply for ROTC scholarships, so even the officers in the military tend to come from slightly more humble backgrounds than the children of millionaires.
In WWII and earlier, it was totally about class. Your Harvard and Yale grads were the officers, because it was the way of things. Nowadays it’s different, and no one from Harvard or Yale joins the military. There are always exceptions, like he who shall not be named without drawing the spite of this entire forum, but it’s no longer the rule that the upper class are the officers.
I forgot to mention, my nomination to USAFA was given by none other than John Boehner
Yeah, in theory anyone can get a rec from a Senator, but realistically it’s still going to be more of a hurdle for a working class poor person whose parents have never had to deal these kinds of applications.
