A Call to Ban NotBruceZ for Consistently Endorsing Violence

[anon38180840]

I think the clear line should be that it’s not okay to post advocating for violence or using violent rhetoric, and that there should be a structure in place to deal with that. It can start with deleting the post and reaching out to the poster asking them to tone it down. If it becomes a pattern, they get a warning and then a series of escalating bans leading to a permaban eventually.

Morally speaking, I don’t think you can make a compelling case for violence if you haven’t already tried to get change done peacefully (protests, elections, etc). There’s also a huge leap from that to directing ethnic cleansing language at 30-40% of the population.

@microbet

The most persuasive argument I can think of at the moment is just that it would set a precedent that overt calls for specific acts of violence can lead to permabanning.

I’m good with this, although I might take out specific and replace it with actual. I’m less concerned with a specific target/time/place being named and more concerned with whether the post is calling for actual violence or something like, “I hope 45 chokes on a Big Mac.”

@whosnext

Putting it another way, trying to eliminate the possibility of someone posting something that could one day influence someone who reads the forum to commit a violent act is a restriction that does far more harm than good.

I mean, there are obviously levels to it. I don’t think you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to see how it could happen with NotBruceZ, and there’s just no redeeming quality to those sorts of posts. Like, calling Trump a monster could lead to that, but it’s calling out his behavior for what it is. Calling for protests at a detention center in which people refuse to disperse could lead to violence, but it’s a call for peaceful protest. Using ethnic cleansing language is just indefensible, and stating that one might commit violence against Trump if he wins in 2020 is just not something we should allow.

@ripdog

. I don’t think they should be sheltered and NBZ should be allowed to vent his frustrations without a bunch of snowflakes getting their panties in a bunch.

In which people are called snowflakes for opposing… checks notes… a call for the use of ethnic cleansing language.

@otatop

What’s crazy to me is there’s already a shelter in place once 3 people (I think) report a post, it’s hidden with a warning saying “This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden” and a link you can click on to see the post.

They’re still there and everyone can see them, so really what’s it accomplishing?

[Loading.000]

@anon38180840

All it takes is one person acting on it and it will have been a grave error to let it go. And the butterfly effect applies here. For example, one person here could decide, “Hey, that’s a cool way to talk to try to trigger the other side. I’m going to go post like that on CP.” Then one person on CP could react to it by deciding that leftists are violent and dangerous, and take a deep dive into 4chan or 8chan or wherever right wing extremists are posting these days, and turn violent.

This is an absurd view and anybody who thinks like this shouldn’t be a mod. All a mod is supposed to do is read posts at face value and decide what they mean to a reasonable person. None of the NBZ posts quoted here can reasonably be interpreted as a call to violence. Pop music shouldn’t be banned because The White Album plus the butterfly effect led to a murder.

[anon38180840]

@Loading.000

This is an absurd view and anybody who thinks like this shouldn’t be a mod.

So start a poll to demod me. If one-third of voters think I should be demodded, I’ll be demodded and lose admin powers.

@Loading.000

None of the NBZ posts quoted here can reasonably be interpreted as a call to violence.

Plenty of people disagree, perhaps including NotBruceZ. Here are some of his past posts:

July 29: “I’m thinking it will take multiple successful assassination attempts against Republican politicians to move the needle. Obviously, I kinda don’t advocate that, but I know it’s the direction my mind will go if I ever lose loved ones to gun violence.”

July 29: (referring to the shooting of the GOP softball game) “Not enough casualties, unfortunately.”

August 6: “Unthinking conservatives are part of the problem. The lack of thought on their part could be taken as an argument they lack sentience and deserve to be crushed like vermin.”

August 6: “If I wanted to kill these people, I’d just use poison. Good luck using a gun against that.”

August 7: “I haven’t really figured out how I want to start a topic on this, but I want to acknowledge that I am aware of and anticipated concerns about what I wrote. My mindset is that we are at war and there will be no unity, so we need to adopt more militant rhetoric on our side. If you don’t agree with that, then you can go vote for Joe Biden. How militant is a reasonable topic for debate.”

August 8: “I’m rooting for ISIS to do things that make Trump look bad.”

August 8: “So, here’s where my head is at. I don’t think I’m a threat to commit any real world mayhem, but I make no promises if Trump is re-elected.”

Mid-Sept: “That’s inefficient. The country would be better off if mass shooters targeted rich people instead of minorities.”

Late-Sept: “A part of me wants another 9/11 just so I can say it wouldn’t have happened if Hillary was president.”

Late-Sept: “Would millenials carrying out mass shootings of boomers shift opinion on gun control?”

I think it’s hard not to interpret this as support for violence.

[Trolly]

idk if anyone’s going to go shoot someone over this, but by god these posts are obnoxious.

[Lawnmower_Man]

There’s a big difference imo in loaded phrases like ethnic cleansing and cheering for cop killings versus references with historical / literary context. I doubt anyone would pitch a fit if he said “Off with their heads!” or “Send them to the guillotines/gallows.” But instead, his move would be something like “Hope they do a snuff film for ISIS.”

[otatop]

@anon38180840

They’re still there and everyone can see them, so really what’s it accomplishing?

I don’t know, maybe that should be discussed here or here.

@anon38180840

Plenty of people disagree, perhaps including NotBruceZ. Here are some of his past posts:

July 29: “I’m thinking it will take multiple successful assassination attempts against Republican politicians to move the needle. Obviously, I kinda don’t advocate that, but I know it’s the direction my mind will go if I ever lose loved ones to gun violence.”

July 29: (referring to the shooting of the GOP softball game) “Not enough casualties, unfortunately.”

I’m just going to copy paste in my previous post showing the context for these “calls for violence” that are actually posts in favor of gun control:

@NotBruceZ

@MattyLice

The only thing that will move the needle [on gun control] is an Emmett Till scenario where a parent shows the gun wounds of an innocent child to the national media. And it will have to be a white affluent child at that. And even that may not be enough.

I’m thinking it will take multiple successful assassination attempts against Republican politicians to move the needle. Obviously, I kinda don’t advocate that, but I know it’s the direction my mind will go if I ever lose loved ones to gun violence.

@NotBruceZ

@MattyLice

Nah, that wouldn’t even do it. Remember that softball game a few years ago? If anything, they doubled down on gun rights.

Not enough casualties, unfortunately.

[anon38180840]

Yeah I don’t think that context helps much. “I kinda don’t advocate that,” is just a glass half full way of saying “I kinda do advocate that.”

[tabbaker]

To me if he would post something more specifically threatening that would obviously be worth banning. These vague, pushing the boundaries posts seem like someone trying to get a rise out of others.

[otatop]

@tabbaker

These vague, pushing the boundaries posts seem like someone trying to get a rise out of others.

Quite successfully, too.

[anon38180840]

@tabbaker

To me if he would post something more specifically threatening that would obviously be worth banning. These vague, pushing the boundaries posts seem like someone trying to get a rise out of others.

He’s on the record numerous times that he genuinely believes what he posts, that he thinks the left needs to use violent rhetoric, that he wants to use the language of ethnic cleansing.

And numerous regs are like, “I dunno, seems like he doesn’t actually believe it and just wants to get a rise!”

I mean, maybe, but there’s just no discernible difference so it shouldn’t matter. When someone says they genuinely believe what they’re posting, I think we should just take them at their word.

[anon38180840]

But, hey, what do I know? I thought this was a community that would surely ban violent rhetoric and instead it looks like I’m probably a pretty big favorite to get de-modded and removed as an admin based on this thread, so you guys will get the no holds barred community you want that condones calls to violence.

[Loading.000]

@anon38180840

So start a poll to demod me. If one-third of voters think I should be demodded, I’ll be demodded and lose admin powers.

Why do I have to do that? You already said

That’s fine, if enough of the community shares his views to warrant his continued posting, I’ll demod/de-admin and just be a regular poster who spends a little less time here. I cannot personally witness this posting with the power to remove it and let it go.

A healthy majority of 40+ voters already said they don’t think the posts are ban worthy. This honestly just seems like a personal grudge and trolling on your part now. I’m certainly not going to create a poll about your demodding given you’ve already cried wolf about it once.

[anon38180840]

@Loading.000

A healthy majority of 40+ voters already said they don’t think the posts are ban worthy.

He hasn’t been permanently banned.

@Loading.000

A healthy majority of 40+ voters already said they don’t think the posts are ban worthy.

There are 300+ users here. I think 3-5 people so far have suggested I shouldn’t be a mod.

@Loading.000

This honestly just seems like a personal grudge and trolling on your part now.

I have no personal grudge, I don’t think I’ve interacted with NotBruceZ in any significant way other than trying to get the violent rhetoric to stop.

@Loading.000

I’m certainly not going to create a poll about your demodding given you’ve already cried wolf about it once.

If you want me out as a mod, start a poll. So far a few people have suggested I should be out, but none of them are starting the poll.

[Loading.000]

I don’t care if you’re a mod or not. YOU said you can’t sit back and allow/ignore NBZ’s posts if you have mod powers. 50%+ of the posters who voted don’t think NBZ should be banned. Seems like you resigning as mod is the obvious resolution, not somebody making a poll about whether people want you demodded.

[eeAWW]

@Trolly

Does anyone even know who this guy was on 22?

[Trolly]

JFC, cause is doing a fine job, stop encouraging him to quit.

[Trolly]

@eeAWW

@Trolly

Does anyone even know who this guy was on 22?

Honestly, I wonder if this isn’t the BruceZ Brigade carrying in their lifelong work of disrupting this community.

[anon38180840]

@Loading.000

YOU said you can’t sit back and allow/ignore NBZ’s posts if you have mod powers.

And I’m not sitting back and ignoring them.

@Loading.000

50%+ of the posters who voted don’t think NBZ should be banned.

Yep. And I’m taking a stand, given the powers that have previously be entrusted to me.

@Loading.000

Seems like you resigning as mod is the obvious resolution, not somebody making a poll about whether people want you demodded.

I disagree. I’ve previously been entrusted with mod powers with the support of the community. I’m not resigning and allowing posting I think is morally reprehensible to continue because 3-5 people have called for me to be removed. If you want me out as a mod, make a poll. You only need to get my approval below two-thirds and I’ll be out. Hell, you could try to get the community to back an even stronger threshold of approval to keep mod powers, like 75 or 80%. Get the support and go for it.

Until then, I’m taking a stand on this issue based on the power the community has granted me and my personal convictions on the the rhetoric.

[Lawnmower_Man]

cuserounder mod > nbz’s right to post about cheering for cop murders, mass shootings, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing

C’mon, it’s not even close.

[Formula72]

My post was poorly worded. Cuse, is doing the right thing.