had a lengthy IRL argument about this, which upset me quite a bit. a few things i want to get off my chest.
i saw palestinian flags flown as protest during the weekend of the hamas attack, morning of saturday or sunday in the US. it triggered me beyond what i expected. this is after we knew that hamas attacked civilians, while IDF is sweeping for militants who crossed the border, and before idf conducted retaliatory air strikes, or at least before we knew about them. i realize flag of palestine is not the flag of hamas, and i like to think i would support a peaceful independent palestinian state, not ruled by hamas or likes of arafat. but at that moment thereâs no other interpretation that the protest supports the invasion.
even worse, they know whatâs about to descend on palestine in response. in part the protest is compassion for those civilians who will die in the days ahead because hamasâ tactic brought the resposne. where is the compassion for israeli civilians mere hours after it occurred? even as they support a fight against apartheid, they canât acknowledge the trauma for every jewish person? iâve talked to a few (but not all) jewish people i know in the world, and, like myself, they were fearful for their life for the first time in decades or ever.
The protests immediately after the attacks were celebratory from my perspective. The protestors seemed jubilant which was bizarre when you considered what was coming to Palestine in retribution. You would have expected the protest to be about condemning Hamas and calling for peace but instead the protest themes were âFree Palestine, Israel you deserved itâ.
I might regret this, but what do people mean when they say they are âanti zionistâ? Would be more helpful if you consider yourself as one or use that term.
Do you mean you are against Israeliâs government action? Do you mean you are against the UN partition plan on 1947? Do you mean you are against the idea of a homeland for Jewish people in general? Do you mean you are against the existence of Israel? If so, what is the plan with the 9 million civilians living it?
there are plenty of examples in the past of this being untrue. The problem is that the next step for Israel after âeliminating hamasâ (which iâm not sure is possible) will not be to bring economical and national prosperity to Palestinians, but more military control but now with less buildings.
Correct me if Iâm wrong but the basis for zionism is biblical, right? Anything with a basis in the bible will be flawed because the bible/torah is complete bullshit and everyone knows it.
and no i donât care what you excise because i dont give a shit. this is clearly the place for âwhat if ethnic cleansing is a good idea ackshuallyâ type of discussions. Canât say Iâm the least bit shocked on a forum thatâs cool with the n word etc.
in what way? that Jews lived in modern day Israel is bullshit? Obviously iâm not religious in any way but i donât understand what you mean here. Zionism movement was almost entirely secular.
And I think ethnic cleansing is a really bad idea. Thatâs why âfrom the river to the seaâ offends me as does a two state solution in the current geopolitical map (which sucks for me). Ethnic cleansing is wrong even if you really hate the people youâre cleansing.
maybe I am misinterpreting what you said or meant. Anyway donât want to be accused of âharassmentâ so I am gonna respectfully dip from the convo.
Well, lets say the nazis allowed my grandparents to leave Europe instead of gasing them, it would be preferable.
India and Pakistan did a massive ethnic cleansing when they formed. Muslims went to Pakistan, Hindus to India (simplfying it of course). I am not an expert on the area, but Iâm sure there are interesting theories as to whether this caused more harm or saved more lives.
See, talking is nice. People can learn. Opinions and thoughts can be shared.
You have more context to this conversation than I ever could and I do appreciate your posts itt. I pray you and your family can continue to remain safe. It is a difficult situation with no clear answers, thatâs for sure. I just am tired of the debate around this in the US being âwell if you dont support the wholesale destruction of gaza and its citizens you are supporting hamas.â You didnât say that, I know, but it oozes throughout the discourse and from posts here (and the other site too).
It shouldnât. If you feel posts here oozes that, itâs because you are deflecting from other conversations you made had or heard.
Palestinian suffering went unheard or underheard for years, but taking sides like itâs a sports game isnât helpful to anyone. We need to be able to hold nuanced and complicated views and avoid charlatans even if they are on âourâ side.
For example, I think a two state solution is morally inferior. I think a two state solution is impossible to achieve now and even if it was it would have required an immoral ethnic cleansing of the Jews population in WB (a population which I whole heartedly hate more than you guys would ever be able to feel). I also hate my government for letting it get to this stage. I also blame Arafat and the Palestinian leadership for passing on the last chance we had to reach that solution.
Nuances are important. Otherwise you canât differ between those on your side and those who are using you.
