2020 Post-Election Thread

Historical counterfactuals, while fun, aren’t actual historiography. There is no right answer. It’s silly to pretend you are right and any other interpretation is patently wrong.

I would argue Bush was far worse than Trump, if the measure is pure death count. If the measure is long term harm to democracy then Trump was far worse. If the view point is from North America, then Trump was far worse. If the viewpoint is from the Middle East, then Bush was far worse.

We also have the vantage of decades hindsight with Bush we don’t have with Trump so it’s hard to compare fairly. It’s possible Trump turns out worse in the end for all measures.

Bottom line, both were horrendous.

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Chapo is not the left.
They have clearly lost their fastball.

I think the unrelenting stupidity of this administration burned them out a bit, coupled with Bernie losing.

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Hot take:

While Trump’s actual actions really aren’t all that different from most other recent presidents (if he’s a fascistic dictator, they are all fascistic dictators), the real thing he does differently that’s new and scary is use social media, cable news, etc. to present the specter of many worse things. Maybe that’s just as bad because of how it warps our society by allowing all the quiet parts to be said out loud.

This is the same president who literally called his invasion of muslim countries a crusade. So both sides at home, mask off imperialism abroad.
But yeah, ok trump would have made things less safe for muslims in the us. Hard to imagine anything less save than actual military invasion and years of anarchy Bush brought the middle east though.

Pompeo believes in the rapture. Trump would have loved a war. We’re just lucky it never transpired. I really object to the stupidity, naivete and other bad personality traits of Trump being used as positives for why he wasn’t as bad as possible. Its exactly why he was!

To go off of Champ, ~40% of Americans are now in an alternate reality cult. The media can’t be trusted. Qanon is real, Trump won the election. The media is the enemy of the people. Democrats are raping and eating babies. Covid is a hoax, masks don’t work. This is a real bad and bleak time! GOP officials believe this stuff!

COVID goes very differently worldwide under any other president.

How is what he’s done/not done with COVID demonstrably more fascistic? That’s the point of this discussion.

He has way less respect for the law than the already pretty disrespectful previous president’s. Agree that it’s just a matter of how far he went vs being a different kind of thing.

I do think gross incompetence is a fash thing though.

What law has he not followed with respect to COVID?

As to your actual point, Bush flaunted the law more egregiously than Trump AINEC.

Again, following or not following the law is not the sole determining factor of whether someone is a fascist.

Side point: it’s very telling and disturbing how even the people in this forum have forgotten how bad Bush was.

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Who has forgotten?

This way this conversation is going makes it pretty clear that people feel Trump is orders of magnitude worse than Bush and that just isn’t true.

As I pointed out earlier, it depends on what measure you mean unless your view is Bush was worse on every conceivable measure which just doesn’t seem supported by the evidence.

Lol nobody on this board hates W more than me. Many of you might hate him the same amount but I’m at the cap. His approach to government is a sizable amount of how we got here. He definitely wasn’t morally superior to Trump.

I don’t even think Trump is personally to blame for all of this. Other people could have stopped him and didn’t. He really doesn’t know better. Can’t say the same for Bush.

A lot of those Americans were already in an alternate reality cult before trump, just more vocal now that one of them is at the head

Also I don’t think a single law or act that trump has pushed thru is as damaging as what the patriot act has done to our state apparatus

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He would have done whatever his base wanted, and his base wanted to annihilated all Muslims. We probably would have had muslims in camps, and we absolutely would have attacked somebody. He wouldn’t have tried to calm the nation, he would have worked it into a fever of racist revenge.

I dunno maybe we get lucky and he only goes after Afghanistan, but I’m not sure his base would be happy with that.

When your number 1 argument against “he’s a fascist” is “um, actually, he’s too stupid and lacks the attention span to be a fascist” it’s not super convincing.

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More depraved and more offensive, maybe. He wouldn’t have had the wherewithal to start multiple forever wars though.

i mean you don’t have to be tedious and just check the wiki.

Although the Soviet Union declared itself anti-imperialist, critics argue that it exhibited traits common to historic empires.[104][105][106] Some scholars hold that the Soviet Union was a hybrid entity containing elements common to both multinational empires and nation states. Some also argued that the USSR practiced colonialism as did other imperial powers and was carrying on the old Russian tradition of expansion and control.[106] Mao Zedong once argued that the Soviet Union had itself become an imperialist powerwhile maintaining a socialist façade. Moreover, the ideas of imperialism were widely spread in action on the higher levels of government. Some Marxists within the Russian Empire and later the USSR, like Sultan Galiev and Vasyl Shakhrai, considered the Soviet regime a renewed version of the Russian imperialism and colonialism.[107]