Working out / health and fitness

I saw the wind & weather forecast for marathon day was like the wind weather equivalent of 3.6 roentgen, not great not terrible. But that was yesterday and lots of time for it to improve

if you do have a headwind in the second half of the race (per the forecast) then imo absolutely try to run in a group so you can draft—it makes a huge difference. Best-case scenario is in a group with an official pacer so there’s less pressure on you to take too many shifts at the tip of the spear

PS if you’re taking rest days before the saturday race and you’re choosing between taking thursday or friday completely off then standard advice is it’s better to rest on thursday and run a chill 20-30 min shakeout jog on friday, pace doesn’t matter just keep it happy

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You got this! I hope there’s a big pasta dinner in store for you tonight.

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Not ideal!

The combination of anticipated weather and re-thinking my haphazard training and overthinking every niggling irritation in my body has really taken down my self confidence and my expectations. In terms of expectations/goals, I have several. And, over the last week or two, I’ve significantly revised downward the likelihood of hitting each one:

  • 3:44: I think this is my PR, although I’m not positive. (I’ve run 5 marathons: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2016; I can’t find my 1999 result). The 3:44 is from 2001 and 2016 was 3:45.
  • 3:35: This is my good friend’s PR and it would give me great joy to beat that, especially considering that he’s a couple of years younger and is single, so has much more scheduling flexibility.
  • 3:30: This is a random “pride” number, where I’d be more or less satisified to say this was my best time if I were to never run another one.
  • 3:23ish: BQ time (official cutoff of 3:25 with a 2 minute buffer). This is the holy grail time. If I knew that I could do this and it would cause me 300% the pain of getting a 3:30, I would easily take that deal.

My mental state is beyond bonkers at this point, and I’m not able to think rationally at all. I’m almost resigned to a disappointing result. There are 2 things that I’m trying to focus on to keep my spirits up. First is my watch prediction:

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[LOL at watch predictions, but I’ll take whatever confidence boost I can get.]

Second is a comparison of mileage between this go round and my 2016 marathon. The 30-day mileage trend in the months before each race looks like this (orange is 2022, blue is 2016):

This year, I averaged about 7 miles a week more than I did in 2016 for the several months leading up to the race, and I hit a higher weekly/monthly peak before this year’s race. The big dip this year was when I took a long weekend trip to Florida, followed by COVID. But other than that dip, my volume this year has been much better than in 2016.

What does that bode for this year’s race? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, but my stomach is in knots thinking about it.

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I recently reduced my training from 4-5 days a week where id do compound lifts 1 day, then cardio + core the next down to 3 days a week with just compound lifts (i removed additional accessory lifts as well). Went from being sore and achy all the time to never feeling sore and completely obliterating all my previous prs by a good 10-15% in about 1-2 months and i feel a good bit away from hitting failures. Changed nothing regarding diet/sleep/supplments (no PEDs/TRT).

previous prs all 3x5 except deadlift which is 1x5:
squat 280
bench 175 (had shoulder issues due to bad form)
deadlift 335
press 125
row 165

current lifts all 3x5 except deadlift which is 1x5:
squat 315
bench 195
deadlift 360
press 135
row 195

turns out overtraining is quite bad!

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long post about spidercrab’s premarathon mindset…

it's painful but it's also the most ordinary thing in the world to second- & third- guess yourself the week before a marathon. Most everyone else who cares about their time is in the same boat. The only thing that's different about your situation is, and I say this respectfully, but the range of goal times you're considering is too wide. I would never say "dude you can't run the BQ time," because hey, you might. Everybody's different and you might. My experience with grail times is that they seldom come as a nice surprise. But I wouldn't put anything past you or anybody else.

That said, life is long and you’re not old. If (if!) you don’t BQ saturday, here’s one possible path forward: I think a 3:35 autoqualifies you into Chicago, and the deadline to submit for Chicago 2023 is two weeks from today. So you might consider shooting for the 3:35 on saturday, while mentally categorizing Indy as a sweet milestone in a long game that culminates when you do an established marathon training plan like one of Pfitzinger’s and blow your BQ standard out of the water at Chicago next year, like you run a sub 3:20.

But whatever, you’ll figure out your times and goals, and whether you set out saturday at 3:35 pace or 3:30 pace won’t make or break your race. More importantly: I think you can find some genuine peace about the race really quickly, like today. It depends a little on what you’re stressed about. For me, it helps knowing that a race isn’t something that’s going to happen to you; you’re in charge of this thing, you have a ton of control over the experience you’re gonna have. Especially because you haven’t lashed yourself to some specific goal time; on the contrary it sounds like you just want to run as good a race as you can at whatever fitness you’re in while also fading some left-tail risk of having the last ten miles turn into a miserable fiasco. This is achievable! You’re fit, and you know what you’re doing. It’s not like you’re running some marathon on a dare—you’ve done this before, and yeah every race is different, but you’ve put enough work in these last months to handle the distance, that’s a concrete fact.

The real advantage of knowing what you’re doing is that during the race you will know how to interpret the signals your body is sending you, in other words, if you’re paying attention, then deep down you will know what to do. But will you listen? Will you listen to your good judgment? Because at some point, every runner has decided to ignore their brain during the first 2/3rds of a race—we’ve all had races where we spend the first 2/3rds making more rationalizations than fucking zuckerberg to get some dumb time goal…and we all know how that ends up. And it’s not like this is a thing that happens to us just once; we all keep relearning this same lesson the hard way. Because it’s tough to be honest out there.

So maybe it sounds corny but the truth is if you want to feel some serenity about Saturday asap, then it’s simple: just make an oath with yourself that no matter what happens, you won’t do anything dumb for the first eighteen miles. Period. Pledge to yourself that you will be utterly committed to focusing on how you’re feeling (meaning how you’re feeling vis-a-vis your fitness, and the heat, and the wind, and neptune in retrograde & whatever other curveballs). That you will follow your brain’s best advice, and demonstrate your—ahem—your bravery by making zero dumb decisions for the first eighteen miles, the end.

If you can do that then man there’s nothing to really stress over. Because (1) that’s the best possible hedge against having a classic marathon meltdown—which is really the only thing to actually dread here—and (2) you will still be enough in the vicinity of any goal that was gettable that you can still get it. Granted, committing to zero dumbfuck decisions for the first 18 miles is not a small thing: it’s like committing to a no-tilt policy in poker, it’s difficult. And honestly if I thought there was even a 1 in a 700,000 chance that you’d do it, then I’d suggest you consider running this marathon without your watch. I know that’s never happening, and fair enough, but you get the point: that most of the pressure you’re feeling goes poof when you decide not to think backwards from time goals (that you frankly don’t have enough information about right now, i.e. you don’t have a reliable sense for where in your spidercrab bell curve those goals actually stand for you), and instead just keep it simple and run to have a great race: your mind and body will be telling you the entire race what the state of the union actually is, and you definitely have the wherewithal and the nerve to listen, so just do that. Piece of cake.

summary: for the first 18 miles, just be reasonable and run with honesty—regardless of what pace that ends up being from minute to minute. Keep your cool, be optimistic, be present, enjoy the crowd, enjoy the run, push yourself appropriately, but respect that line, knowing that if you go too fast for too long in the beginning that it’s going to cost you double if not quadruple in the end. Then finally yes, if the stars have aligned and you’re having a phenomenal day and you feel like hoof-hearted secretariat, then when you approach mile 19, let gravity whoosh you down that last hill like you’re getting shot out of a cannon, and feel all the juice you still have in your legs, feel the oomph, and then tell your brain to fuck off. Then draft off a goddamn gigantic group of people and run your feet off, come what may

…and if you end up breaking 3:30 or qualifying for chicago then that’s a good bonus! especially if you beat your friend’s PR, because who does he think he’s kidding, dude needs to act his age and realize how nice it would be for spidercrab and mrs spidercrab to hang out with him in a well-balanced group of two couples rather than always forcing them to listen to his same pathetic peter pan third wheel problems. Oh and last thing: regardless of how this race goes, imo your next few months of training might include the dual goals of building mileage and running that 5K in sub-20. You’re really close to the sub-20, time to put a stake through its heart. And not to mention that tiny bit of extra zip will help with endurance stuff later. And the darkest outcome you’re trying to fade is feeling so blah and thwarted by indianapolis that you sink into a bourbon stout coma from Thanksgiving through New Years and put on twelve pounds and hamstring yourself for fall 2023

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hi all will someone please teach me how to hide the body of a post like that? I tried to use < hide > and some other stuff to make it so the post body would only open up if you clicked it—i.e. so anyone opening the thread who wasn’t interested in another mfing codex from me about spidercrab’s marathon wouldn’t be forced to powerscroll

one thing I’m super interested in is how the HRV stuff on our watches might be a decent canary for helping us get the jump on overtraining. Because you’re right, it really is the worst


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Training programs usually don’t have you running the full 26 miles right? Why is that, just too much strain on your body? I feel like I’d want want to know ahead of time what it feels like to run the whole thing ahead of time so I could adjust accordingly for the real thing…

This is also one thing I have wondered.

yep the risk/reward for marathon-length long runs is just lousy. Especially for typical runners who are racing a marathon in four or five hours. When you’re actually training, then once you get a decent number of long runs >20 miles under your belt, most folks are no longer psychologically stressed about finishing the race.

Planning long runs can be tricky: the sweet spot happens when they last 90-150 minutes; it takes 90 minutes to really start remodeling your body’s fat-burning machinery, but after 150 minutes on your feet the diminishing returns start to curdle. Some very occasional three-hour long runs are ok for certain runners, but for most people going too long too often is one of the easiest ways to get hurt and hate running and exercise and verbs.

In general a long run shouldn’t be more than 33% of your weekly mileage (and imo 25% is much better), but these kinds of rules have a zillion exceptions and that’s ok. (I also think it’s smarter to arrange training by time running rather than distance covered, but that’s a tangent.)

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That all seems logical, it’s just weird to me that good training for a marathon apparently does not involve running the full distance even one time. Just once.

There’s a very popular marathon training plan whose longest run is 16 miles. This gets a lot of discussion in the running community about the supposed psychological benefits of putting in 20+ mile runs to build confidence. But the reality is any respectable marathon plan will have you running a ton, just not 26 miles all in a row. For intermediate and beyond runners, the issue isn’t really can they finish, it’s can they finish in a certain time? Because running a marathon at race pace is such a huge effort (regardless of what your race pace is) you only want to do that on race day. And, as EmpireMan said, there’s not much training benefit to running a marathon distance slower than race pace.

Link to plan:

This is really amazing, thank you.

I am close to being at peace with this being a new marathon and hopefully a good experience, rather than my last-ever chance to hit some questionably-attainable goal. Almost there.

This was a particularly helpful way to frame it for me:

This advice–while I appreciate the wisdom and deep down agree that you are correct–is just so completely inconsistent with my life (and that doesn’t say good things about me!) that I had to laugh:

Again, thanks

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I ran a 5k this morning and finished about a minute slower than my PR. My running has been a lot less consistent the past couple months, so it’s not a big surprise that I’m not in the same shape I was this summer when I ran my best races.

Completing today’s race (plus 8 other races that I ran this year and one event that I volunteered at) qualifies me for next year’s New York City Marathon. I’ve got a year to train, starting tomorrow.

Hope that spidercrab is making good time on the Indy course.

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went on a run earlier this morning in solidarity with thread arthropod, and in SF it was weirdly windy & rainy & warm, and man it sucked, everything was so heavy and dull—and it wasn’t even close to as windy or rainy or warm as spidercrab just got in Indy for a fucking marathon! Yuck. Hope the race was good even with the very bad luck. You should definitely buy a powerball ticket today, because you’re owed, it’s just smart.

econophile that’s awesome, everyone I know who’s run NYC thought it was memorable

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Running a marathon in winds gusting 50 mph is complete bullshit. Second half of the race was directly into those winds and felt miserable.

3:33:32

More later when I’m out of bed.

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sweet congrats that’s amazing, tbh it would only better if it were one second slower, and now also you (maybe??) get a little peace of mind knowing that even in a noncomplete bullshit race in perfect conditions that you maybe weren’t going ~25 sec/mile faster for 26 miles, i.e. getting some BQ peace of mind today wouldve been a really big ask. But now if you feel like building from this next year and checking a few big ticket items off the bucket list then you’re in a really good spot. And anyway who gaf about next year, that’s a fantastic race today!! You clobbered your old record in the teeth of a November storm. May the worst parts of the memory fade from your mind like a new mom post-episiotomy

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+1 to what EmpireMan said. Great job considering the conditions.

I went for a run in Chicago today and kept it short because it freaking sucks out there. I can’t imagine doing a marathon in that BS. With that wind it seems like a pretty damn impressive race!