Also I’m not aware of anyone here arguing that the Iraq War is Saddam’s fault because he failed to bow down to GWB.
Filthy anti-semites!
TIL that no one is still pissed about WWII. Surprising since all I’ve ever heard is that East Asia still hates Japan. Just silly myths I guess.
Also FWIW every German I’ve ever met hates the French, and vice versa. It’s almost like being two modern democracies keeps that stuff at the bitter rivalry level, and not fear of reviving the horror stories your grandparents told level.
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I’m just super suspicious of people glomming onto this type of argument, yet they’ve completely passed on multiple other opportunities in the past. It’s almost like it’s a position designed to be contrarian.
of course! hey man, life only imitates art.
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Speaking personally that scenario could not be more different for many reasons particularly that Israel is an ally of NATO members unlike Russia. Maybe China would be a more apt comparison with the Uyghurs (and I believe people have made similar arguments to this guy) or if they were to say threaten Vietnam or some other smaller, non-nuclear armed country.
I kind of did that with suspect facts to boot.
Like Taiwan? Sure seems like Taiwan’s security is only guaranteed because of it’s protection from the West.
This is an argument to stay forever aligned to the power who committed a genocide in your region because they might be terrible bastards again. Seems like the better strat is to quickly join NATO like other countries that border Russia like Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia (or other counties that have secured western support like Taiwan, and SK)
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@ChrisV im still legitimately confused about what you’re trying to argue.
Are you arguing, as Messer does, that the Ukrainian people don’t know what’s best for them, and would be better off under a Putin-aligned dictator?
Or just that the West should have shunned UKR and every other eastern bloc country when they looked West for economic and defense support? Which they mostly did shun UKR. But they’re paying for our sins with Estonia apparently. (note: I do not mean “sins” literally. It’s a rhetorical device.)
Or something else? Walk me through specifically what all parties involved should have done differently.
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I’ll take your word for it and shoot some of this into my veins. If nothing else, it will help me sleep better at night.
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He even tried, and we still invaded!
This Messer argument is really starting to feel like trying to explain to a Trumper why they should care about other people.
Just in the sense that I don’t know how to explain that the UKR would clearly rather fight a bloody war than be part of Putin’s grand dream to get the USSR band back together. Which means they would have wound up in this spot one way or another.
This just seems true on it’s face to me, to where arguing against it feels like being gaslit. The counter-argument literally relies on knowing that what’s in Putin’s heart runs counter to his stated dream for decades in any forum he could shout it, and ignoring every single thing he’s done the last 20 years.
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i’m workshopping the phrase “corruption ate the army from the inside out.”
a few accounts around twitter are starting to realize that the russian army was overestimated by both the west and putin himself.
This John quote is actually so insane given world events right now:
“But in the real world, that is not feasible. The Ukrainians have a vested interest in paying serious attention to what the Russians want from them. They run a grave risk if they alienate the Russians in a fundamental way. If Russia thinks that Ukraine presents an existential threat to Russia because it is aligning with the United States and its West European allies, this is going to cause an enormous amount of damage to Ukraine. That of course is exactly what’s happening now. So my argument is: the strategically wise strategy for Ukraine is to break off its close relations with the West, especially with the United States, and try to accommodate the Russians. If there had been no decision to move nato eastward to include Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbass would be part of Ukraine today, and there would be no war in Ukraine.”
Trying to accommodate the Russians…. Fucking lmao.
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I mean, the way those Ukrainians were dressed, they were totally asking for it. Can you believe that they’d try to cosy up to someone else so soon after leaving their abuser? Absolutely had it coming.
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He covers it in a different portion of the interview, unsuccessfully I think, where the interview brings that up and he says there’s actually three things Russia doesn’t Ukraine to have; EU membership, and then he adds American leaning democracy. He doesn’t outright say it, but hints at it, basically they can’t do anything outside of Russia’s orbit with maybe being ‘neutral’ in weakest sense possible. It does kind of belay the idea that NATO is the cause of it. In reality it’s anything that pulls Ukraine outside of Russia’s orbit.
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Yeah basically saying subjugation is better than fighting back, but dissembling just enough not to come right out and say it.
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https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1498787897343979520
Clearly, these guys need to talk to VFS. He’ll set them straight.
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