Why are there women’s poker tournaments?
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Same as chess, I think, the people administering the competitions want to promote women playing and they can garner more interest from women players if they have a reasonable expectation of winning.
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And as appealing as it sounds from a Pure Logic I Am Very Smart perspective, “why can’t the women just play with the men” breaks down pretty fast if you have ever in your life seen straight cis men interact with women. The main rationale behind women’s sports is that women want them, and that should be good enough.
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I can’t really watch this discussion without showing you these clips. I know there aren’t many bowlers or bowling fans on this board except me, but I think this is worth watching. When I started bowling seriously back in the 80’s, there were many “men’s leagues” and some women’s leagues too. Over time, those have virtually evolved completely away. Even in the highest caliber local leagues, women are a prominent force. Really not unusual at all for me, or any other decent amateur bowler to be beaten by a woman. It happens all the time. But this look back at a major pro bowling tournament is just great.
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Parent of high school friend responded to my "suddenly conservative white men give so many shits about competitive women’s sports, weird!’ post on FB with a comment about how I should have joined the women’s basketball team as a kid. This was my response.
So go with it then, what if I WAS a guard on the girls team as a 16 yo, what would the overall impact have been for all involved? Who are the victims, and how impactful is my participation on them?
I’ve built a career out of working with kids, it’s my vocation in this life. And of the kids I’ve worked with over the years, the trans community is without a shadow of a doubt, hands down the most disadvantaged by a mile; often the parents don’t accept them, kids all relentlessly bully them, the church doesn’t support them. Usually they have basically nobody and live an intensely depressing and solitary existence.
So if you’re gonna advocate for preventing all trans kids from being on a team where they’ve finally found a sense of community, of belonging, of genuine caring and support, then you need to know that that this will directly lead to kids downing bottles of Tylenol or blowing their head off with dad’s gun. Hate to be macabre but it’s important to be real about the ramifications of what you’re advocating for. A third of transgender girls are already attempting suicide at some point, and half of transgender boys do, so imagine if those who finally have found a safe haven ended up getting rejected in this way. What do you think will happen Joe?
So back to my OP. I guess if you’re such a passionate fan and advocate of women’s competitive swimming that the sanctity of the support & tradition of its founding compels you somehow to ensure we only include women who were born with vaginas - and you care so deeply about this that you want federal and state legislation to prevent transgender people from participating - then I guess you’re making an informed decision so long as you also recognize what the actual, real world consequences would be for America’s most at-risk group of children. Many will attempt suicide, some will successfully take their own life. Almost all will intensely grieve the loss of the one & only place they achieved a sense of belonging, which as you know is vital for teens.
Because that’s the angle I’m looking at this from Joe. I have never given a single fuck about women’s competitive swimming and I’m not pretending I do now. I couldn’t name one Olympian, not one professional swimmer in the history of the sport. I might rattle off three swimming strokes if I’m lucky. Just don’t give any fucks at all, as evidenced by you being unable to locate a single previous social media post from me about the topic.
However, I do give many fucks about the mental health of America’s children, and I’m telling you unequivocally, staring you down eyeball to eyeball, that allowing transgender girls to participate in sports isn’t gonna move the needle in terms of serious mental health outcomes in any generalized way, but preventing them will absolutely lead directly to more dead and seriously mentally ill children. So that’s what moves me old friend.
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Cause men are jackasses.
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That’s not it imo. It’s that men are generally awful to women. The segregation in poker and chess is about minimizing sexism and overt harassment and less about skill levels.
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Yeah I mentioned that in a separate post. I really do think it’s both. Lots of groups that organize competitions have an interest in expanding participation. Creating a friendly environment for roughly 50% of the entire population is a slam dunk. I think the friendly environment is partly dealing with the toxic masculinity, of course, and partly creating a good competitive environment.
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Poker maybe, chess definitely not.
On balance the chess guys seem more like nervous dorks around women than insecure alpha assholes. I’m sure there are exceptions.
It’s this:
Because this:
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The idea that if men were nicer to women we wouldn’t need women’s sports is misguided.
Chess is an interesting case because they are explicit that their two rating fields are Open and Women, not Men and Women.
https://ratings.fide.com/top_lists.phtml
If you scroll down the open list you will find the current world’s best rated woman at number 94 on the open list.
People are undoubtedly well aware of how Judit Pulgar famously refused to play in women’s only events. She talks about the reasons and circumstances in her autobiography. Her sister Susan did play in women’s only events and won the women’s world championship.
I think it’s a matter of expectations and marketing. I’m currently enjoying watching the NCAA basketball tournament even though the play is much sloppier than at the NBA level I watched last night. The champion Georgia Bulldogs would’ve been lucky to put up 3 points against last year’s Lions, yet I’m guessing many people enjoyed watching the Alabama/Georgia game nevertheless
I mean, we can continue trying to ignore the current obvious scientific fact that males tend to be physically bigger, faster, stronger on average than females, or we can do something real to create equality in sports
I could also see it reaching a natural parity. Would the 200th ranked male even want to compete against Serena Williams in a class IX tennis tournament? Maybe not, and the contestants would mostly be biological and transgender females
I think it’s not just transgenders who get short changed, but women in sports in general. Colleges are built on male dominated sports programs. How many athletic scholarships are available to women? My guess is that somewhere out there is a woman who can play better basketball than the last guy to make the cut for Norfolk State. I for one, would watch a match of Serena Williams competing against the 171st ranked male on a tennis court. I really do think the zeitgeist surrounding sports can be changed
Yes, why are there?
Why not?
It’s the epitome of patronization imo. There is no reason why a woman can’t compete with a man on a poker table or why there needs to be a separate tournament. I think a lot of it comes down to advertising money also. There is just more money to be made from outside sources when you separate competitions into distinct groups
Actually a lot in the US because of Title IX.
Where women miss out financially is after college. If you’re the 50th best men’s basketball player in the world, you are set for life. ESPN says that the 50th best player in 2021-22 is Kristaps Porzingis (forget about whether he is actually a little above or below that; he’s close enough). He has a 5-year contract worth over $150 million.
If you’re the 50th best women’s basketball player, you ain’t even close to touching that kind of money. You might be under $100K/year. It’s why Brittney Griner (who is considerably better than the 50th best WNBA player) is over in Russia right now.
hard to see why anyone would care. last time i checked most WSOP events are open to all. if someone wants to organize an all women (or all men) poker tournament, why stop them?