Trans Issues In Sports/Society

[mosdef]

I think the point is a good point, but I do also think that there is a certain flaw in this reasoning. Phelps competes in an effectively open competition, but women do not. If a woman wanted to race against Phelps and other men, and met the qualifying requirements, she would be praised like other women playing men’s sports. But women compete in a non-open competition, by design. So there isn’t really a symmetry there.

For clarity, I am generally for trans women competing as women because they are women. I just happen to think this particular argument doesn’t really get us very far.

[Rugby]

@WichitaDM

In a perfect world where transgender people were not being actively discriminated against in lots of ways could we sit around and have a navel gazing conversation about who should and shouldn’t be allowed to participate in women’s sports? Maybe. We don’t live in that world. We live in the world where Fox News and the like has weaponized this story and similar other stories to try and hurt transgender people as a whole and make excuses for laws that have already been passed basically criminalizing transgender people in states like Texas, Florida and others.

If you were transgender would you feel safe participating in this forum after this thread? Of course not. Do better.

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[CanadaMatt3004]

You can make the same case for Ledecky that SD made for Phelps

[skydiver8]

Yeah, I only used Phelps because of his “proven biological advantages” as an analogy to what a I see a lot of people talking about in re: trans women.

[mosdef]

It does make one wonder if instead of splitting by gender everything should just be split be strength of competition. Let everyone who can qualify for Group A race there, Group B race there, etc. etc. where the groups have descending standards of qualification. Given our experience with sports the top few groups would be full of men and the occasional outlier elite woman athlete. At some Group there would be the majority of top elite women and less elite men. Who cares what gender they are if they are competing against equals?

[LouisCyphre]

@skydiver8

Should Michael Phelps have been “regulated?”

There are no simple answers to complicated problems. I think the focus should be much broader than the edge cases like Michael Phelps, Lebron James or Usain Bolt. Every top athlete by definition is a freak. To me the question is whether there should be separate women’s competition because of physical advantages men have and while I am open to be persuaded that there shouldn’t I at least for now think there should be.

[CanadaMatt3004]

Don’t you think it might be best to go the other way around? Allow trans-women to compete until such time there is a crisis where they are dominating outside of the expected amount and then discuss changes once a problem has been identified in practice instead of just theory?

[whosnext]

I hung out with Michael Gross (the Albatross) a bit in 1984 and his height and long arms gave him a natural “advantage” in swimming. Of course, that has next to nothing to do with trans issues but the last few posts reminded me of the Albatross.

[mosdef]

I also think at the top top top of the elite, it’s kind of unnecessary to even look at gender. The Global World Championship For Supremacy can be held every year, letting the top 10 in the world (regardless of gender) compete. What really matters is dividing up the rest of everyone in a way that creates the best sporting environment.

[skydiver8]

The other point that was touched on earlier but is tougher to articulate succinctly is how, should we assume the “biological advantage” argument is 100% true, is that distance events aren’t the best gauge of said advantage.

If you look at best times relative to the distance of the event (not just in swimming, but in many other sports), the longer the event, the closer the gap between men and women.

The extreme right wing view is that Lia did this on purpose because she couldn’t win as a man. So why didn’t she dominate in the 100m, where the differences between men and women should be much more apparent?

@LouisCyphre

I think the focus should be much broader than the edge cases like Michael Phelps, Lebron James or Usain Bolt

A trans woman competing at the NCAA championships and winning one event IS an edge case.

[Rugby]

@RiskyFlush

How would you explain this to a suicidal twelve year old just told she has no choice but to sit this out or play with the boys?

Not even an extreme question or uncommon situation for people with transgender experiences. You may not intend malice, but that’s the impact of amendments like these and casual chat that leftists need to make compromises here. You are not asking the leftists to give ground here. You are asking a marginalized population to give ground for something that was never within their control.

Not politicians. Not parents. Not siblings. I mean the young trans kids who already live in a world that mostly insists they don’t deserve to exist.

These wedge issues and the solutions proposed so far are not helping young trans kids born with body parts or hormonal effects you think disallow them from participating any more than if you applied the same standard to a kid born intersex or just with a hormone profile indistinguishable from someone you’d describe as a trans-beneficiary athlete.

Those are the people you need to consider how to explain your position to. Labeling it transphobic isn’t to indicate malice on anyone’s part. It’s to indicate that regardless of your intentions, your position has transphobic effects that hurt actual trans people.

I would say the same to a conservative explaining why their positions technically aren’t racist and definitely don’t hold malice. Sure! But look at the impact and maybe you’ll find that while you may have feelings and concerns you’re not willing to discard, the way you shape those into a position and advocacy may need to be reconsidered if the goal at least in part is to say fuck you to politicians and start showing care to the trans people being affected.

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[LouisCyphre]

I’ll agree with you with the caveat that we should be proactive in areas where there are going to be predictable results or safety issues, for example weight-lifting or MMA. Having regulations there seems to be reasonable to me.

[Rugby]

@clovis8

Other things matter more than sports. Peoples gender identity is one. This is 100% a non-issue raised to mask transphobia.

If every trans person joined a sports league today it would have a nominal effect compared to the harm caused by this “debate” and all the laws being passed to legalize transphobia.

I don’t buy anyone who claims to pretend this is a real issue. It’s bathrooms 2.0.

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[Rugby]

@RiskyFlush

@zimmer4141

does not make them transphobic

You are confusing a person’s identity with their position.

The position is transphobic even if the person is not.

The position is transphobic even if based on facts.

This sort of confusion is why it is so easy for racists to live in denial that they have any racist attitudes, feelings, or positions. They do not identify as a racist and can find all sorts of evidence to show they would not fairly be called a 100% bonafide racist, therefore they need not look any more deeply to come into awareness of the bigotry that almost certainly exists within them (as it exists within us all).

The amount of trans people in my life is enough for me to die on this hill. You are not disqualified from being a liberal just because you hold or express transphobic positions. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. You know your own heart and intentions.

I just ask for you, as I imagine any of us would compel a well-intentioned liberal expressing any other bigoted position, to look more deeply. You can take responsibility for a position without apologizing for your very identity

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[CanadaMatt3004]

I think thats fair.

I don’t know enough about either sport, but do weight classes help in that regard? Is a 115 pound trans-woman MMAer who has been transitioning for two years significantly stronger than a 115 pound cis female if both have been training an equivalent amount of time?

[Rugby]

@clovis8

The harm of this social differentiation far outweighs the harm of them playing in the main league though.

Remember trans people are already subject to massive amounts of social stigma and pressure all around their gender identity. Creating groups to segregate them due to their gender identity can only make this far worse.

This especially true when compared to the essentially zero harm created by them being part of the main league.

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This one is especially relevant to why any argument about separate league, other leagues, or forcing trans women to compete with mostly cis men is directly harmful and transphobic.

[Rugby]

@StimAbuser

Honestly my final take is I should not have any fucking say in this at all and neither should a bunch of cis males and it should be left up to transgenders, cis women, science, and sports governing bodies.

Outside of this obviously the way society treats transgenders is horrific and despicable and we should be pouring a ton of resources into making life easier for them.

I also know several transgender woman and men, none of them athletes though. What I do know that made their lives infinitely better was finding our loving and accepting community. They’re allowed to be theirselves with us, no judging, no hate, just love. Thats what they really need.

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[ParlaySlow]

I think the problem with this analogy is that Phelps is competing in an ‘unrestricted’ competitive class so his ‘proven biological advantages’ don’t matter.

[LouisCyphre]

@CanadaMatt3004

Is a 115 pound trans-woman MMAer who has been transitioning for two years significantly stronger than a 115 pound cis female if both have been training an equivalent amount of time?

The bolded is what I would call a regulation. I don’t know where the cutoff should be but I am skeptical it should be day one of the transition for MMA/weightlifting type competitions.

There is a difference in male and female muscles. So a man with the same muscle mass as a woman is expected to be stronger and faster.

[Rugby]

@Rugby

I stand by that comparison. The idea that cis men need to protect cis women in sports is the same argument that was made in the bathrom debate. If you dont like the comparison, then take the shoe off.

As others (and myself) made clear early in the thread. The arguments you want to focus on are the 0.1% of the issue. Its voter fraud. Its the one trans woman who attacked someone. Its the justified police shooting.

The other 99.9% is kids dying. Every day. So when you come in focus on that 0.1%, you should be aware that you are tying your horse to a wagon that kills people. When you wrap it up with that “only sports people can really see the nuance” garbage that you opened with, you are going to get a reaction.

The “it’s an echo chamber, im being shouted down” narrative as well? Youve read the thread. The arguments have been made, in depth, and on the most part reasonably. Theres a reason why your post got a different treatment, and its nothing to do with an echo chamber.

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