Its hard to believe because it isnt happening and your sister is a fucking moron
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And this has nothing to do with the topic at hand (trans women in sports) so I suggested it be taken elsewhere. Your welcome not to, but eventually Ill just excise a derail of this sort.
Sexual attraction is a pretty shitty way to determine whether or not someone deserves basic rights.
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Isnât it, though? If a straight cis dude doesnât want to bang a trans woman, it means she doesnât deserve to play.
Then what relevance does it have at all, and why would you expect people to answer it?
Good faith question:
Is there anyone ITT that believes that this topic is just dead simple (i.e. everyone should be able to participate in any sport at any level as whatever gender they identify with, period end of story)?
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Gender identity isnât like having bangs, itâs a little more intensive of a process to undergo. You canât just show up to the mall and get it done in 30 minutes.
Your sister probably has never met a real trans person nor knows the parents of any.
Iâd also be curious if anyone else ITT thought that this was a good idea.
Is the implication here that if allowed, a bunch of adult men would start playing in womenâs events? Thatâs a silly hypothetical thatâs not realistic. Male athletes donât think âman, I hate being ranked 75th itw in tennis, I wish I could play against women and be ranked higher.â
Itâs never happened of a transitioned person. Period. Probably never will.
Thatâs definitely not the implication of my question. I find this topic quite interesting. Thereâs a lot of strong language ITT describing peopleâs views, so Iâm trying to figure out if thatâs because people think that this is all very obvious.
I do not believe this should be the case.
I am interpreting this to be the view point of people who say âTrans women are women, full stop.â
I am not necessarily interpreting it that way. I think someone can say that but still believe that for sports competition itâs more complicated than participating in any sport at any level based on gender identity.
I do not believe anyone itt has said that for competitive events that medical professionals should not be consulted or that regulations shouldnât be in place?
I believe most of the distinction is calling people who clearly donât identify as male such.
When considering the highest levels of competitive womenâs sports, does anyone itt think itâs simple to determine who should get to participate and who shouldnât?
Also, is there some degree of disagreement itt as to whether the highest level of US intercollegiate athletics is included in âthe highest levels of competitive womenâs sportsâ ?
No I was curious if anyone ITT thought it was a good idea.
The argument made was that anybody who doesnât think that trans women are women, full stop, no qualifiers, is transphobic. In that context it is relevant if people who say that actually believe that and live according to their convictions.
Iâm pretty over the use of âtrans women are womenâ to short-circuit any and all debate on trans issues. It reminds me of that argument libertarians use where theyâre like âhey do you believe that people should be entitled to the proceeds of their labour and not have it taken by forceâ and when youâre like âsureâ theyâre like âwell government taxation is taking peopleâs income by force therefore if you support that you support theftâ. The answer to which is simply that you canât ask for agreement to a natural-language proposition and then turn around and apply formal logic to it, because there are usually implicit caveats to the agreement. Itâs just an attempt to bully people, basically.
I would, for example, totally agree to the proposition âhuman beings are animalsâ but if I see a sign outside a venue saying âno animals allowedâ I donât assume this includes me. This doesnât constitute evidence that I donât believe human beings are animals. It constitutes evidence that I have human language comprehension skills and understand that itâs perfectly normal for the meanings of words to vary in different contexts.
This is especially true when the use of words predates their updated meaning. That is, womenâs sport was called âwomenâs sportâ in an era where âwomenâ, the gender, and âfemaleâ, the sex, were synonymous. Itâs not clear which of these should apply now that the meanings are divergent.
In response to why Iâm so vehement, and why i used the MS13 analogy.
Questions arenât made without context. Both in society and in this thread.
Questioning whether Liaâs case requires a reexamination of the exact guidelines for swimmers probably could be done in a non transphobic way, perhaps by an official in the sport familiar with the rules and who has the best interest of trans athletes in mind, or a medical professional with experience in the rules for trans athletes. There may even be very trans friendly sports forums where this could be done by a member of the public.
However, thatâs very much not the context here.
Instead. At a societal level, we have fox news and transphobes using this deliberately and publicly as something to beat down on trans kids in the media, which is directly harmful on its own, and is furthermore used to support fascist Gestapo level policy against kids, parents and teachers in the south. Itâs a debate in which kids are dying.
At the level of the thread, we have an admittedly wide range of deeply ignorant transphobic shit being thrown out, unchallenged by a bunch of privileged dudes who are prioritizing their right to pontificate on a sport they dont even watch, and on an issue they dont understand.
We choose our questions and what we want to discuss. The context here makes some of those choices fucked up.
Hypothetical. A black guy in the bar youâre in is getting beaten by three bouncers and being called a n*****, if youâre in the bar and you start discussing what this means for dress code rules instead of calling the police or intervening, then youâre racist. Even if discussing dress code rules on itâs own sounds pretty innocuous.
Thatâs where we are at here. Theres active harm being done on this topic and in this thread. Anything less than a full defence of trans people and an attempt to make the transphobia itt unacceptable is not good enough.
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Thatâs not my position. Iâm not sure its anyoneâs.